Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       3       end
  

Archive 2015 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR

  
 
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


I posted this earlier in another thread but thought it might interest people enough to warrant its own thread.

... The file is a raw format test image from http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/canon_eos_5ds_photos/. This was photographed with the 5Ds at ISO 100, f/8, 1/400 second. It isn't clear what lens was used, but it appears that it could have been either the 50mm f/1.8 STM lens or the 24-70mm f/2.8 II.

Opened the file in ACR. Made no adjustments to curves, color, etc. Let ACR automatically correct for CA. Default ACR sharpening used at 15 with masking at 50. Default ACR NR left on — chroma only.

Brought file into Photoshop as a smart object to allow non-destructive re-editing in ACR. Confirmed that areas along the waterline of the boats in shadow have luminosity values of 0 by checking the Lab color representation and watching the L value which hits 0 in several spots. The general area is shown by the rectangle in the following image:

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/images/5DsNoise/5DsPhoto.jpg

Here are six versions of a 600 x 400 pixel crop including this area of the scene. All are 100% magnification crops. They are as follows:

1. original exposure.

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/images/5DsNoise/canoneos5ds0.jpg

2. "exposure" slider raised by 1.00.

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/images/5DsNoise/canoneos5ds1.jpg

3. "exposure" slider raised by 2.00.

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/images/5DsNoise/canoneos5ds2.jpg

4. "exposure" slider raised by 3.00.

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/images/5DsNoise/canoneos5ds3.jpg

5. "exposure" slider raised by 4.00.

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/images/5DsNoise/canoneos5ds4.jpg

6. "exposure" slider raised by 5.00.

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/images/5DsNoise/canoneos5ds5.jpg

Each successive image was made by reopening the smart object in ACR and readjusting the "exposure" slider on full value higher, which is essentially the same thing in ACR as adjusting the same slider in LR.

Each was converted to 8-bit jpg and the sRGB color space. No sharpening or additional processing was applied in ACR or in Photoshop.

For fun, here is a small version of the full final image with exposure at +5.00

http://www.gdanmitchell.com/images/5DsNoise/canoneos5dsFinal.jpg

I have no evidence that the 5Ds equals or exceeds the low noise or dynamic range capabilities of the Sony sensors, and no one has made such a claim — to the contrary, it seems like the new Canon sensor will likely have less dynamic range than the current Sony sensors. That said, everything I've seen so far suggests that the 5Ds sensor will work very well. I hope this set of images may help quantify the meaning of this and the actual ability of the 5Ds sensor.

Enjoy!

Dan

Edited on Jun 08, 2015 at 02:23 PM · View previous versions



Jun 08, 2015 at 12:43 AM
Konablue
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


The cropping that tight is impressive even though the DR seems to be no real improvement but I'm ok with it being about the same as the 5D3. I wonder how well the noise in #2 or #3 will clean up.


Jun 08, 2015 at 01:19 AM
Konablue
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


The cropping that tight is impressive even though the DR seems to be no real improvement but I'm ok with it being about the same as the 5D3. I wonder how well the noise in #2 or #3 will clean up.


Jun 08, 2015 at 01:19 AM
Photonadave
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


EXIF date says 24-70mm f/4 IS using DPP 4.
The noise/grain looks random w/o banding so this shows some improvement.

Thanks Dan!

When I open this RAW file in DPP it seems proportionally slower with some tasks as compared to other similar detailed 5DIII files however when playing with it converted to tif by DPP & opened in CS6 it does not feel much different than other 5DIII files.



Jun 08, 2015 at 01:42 AM
Stoffer
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


gdanmitchell wrote:
That said, everything I've seen so far suggests that the 5Ds sensor will work very well. I hope this set of images may help quantify the meaning of this and the actual ability of the 5Ds sensor.

Dan


I have now been working with a number of the raw files out there from the 5DS, and my conclusion is that you can push the files + 3 EV without much issue. + 4 EV is doable and I think that I might have a trick to get rid of the chroma noise without any side effect at low ISO.

On top of that you can tame some of the luminance noise with the Adjustment Brush in LR/ACR by setting the Noise slider to about 25-40. A setting at 100 is way to much though.

I think the most of us is going to be happy about it (but evidently not all).



Jun 08, 2015 at 03:12 AM
darbo
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


Impressive and promising results! When the 5DS R starts shipping, I am looking forward to this same sort of experiment, but done as a direct comparison to the 5D III. What we're seeing so far looks like a significant improvement in shadow recovery over the 5D III. Very encouraging.


Jun 08, 2015 at 04:50 AM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


Stoffer wrote:
I have now been working with a number of the raw files out there from the 5DS, and my conclusion is that you can push the files + 3 EV without much issue. + 4 EV is doable and I think that I might have a trick to get rid of the chroma noise without any side effect at low ISO...

On top of that you can tame some of the luminance noise with the Adjustment Brush in LR/ACR by setting the Noise slider to about 25-40. A setting at 100 is way to much though.

I think the most of us
...Show more

I've played with a couple files now: this one, in which I wanted to look at the noise in areas of zero luminosity, and a second one with which I tested to see large prints might look like. I' very happy about what I see on both counts. (Which is not to say that there won't be naysayers — there are always naysayers in photo forums, and this won't necessarily be the right camera for everyone.

Keeping in mind that we are looking at 100% magnification crops here of what would be a very small section of an image where the luminosity is zero to near-zero (e.g. black — no luminosity data) and that I didn't try to compensate for the noise at all, I tend to agree with your feeling that a three stop push of darkest tones should [edit] not be a problem with a bit of NR applied to areas affected by the push. I'd be happy to do a four-stop push if needed, especially if the push was to slightly open the darkest areas and NR was mostly applied there. In a bad case I'm sure I could go further with good results in print.

The quality of the noise looks pretty good, too. It seems fairly evenly distributed and the chroma noise isn't excessive for what I've done here — and there is still plenty of room to apply chroma and luminosity noise reduction to the images.

YMMV,

Dan

Edited on Jun 08, 2015 at 11:22 AM · View previous versions



Jun 08, 2015 at 08:07 AM
alundeb
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


Thanks for the exercise, Dan. Sure the shadows can be recovered a few stops without problems.

A word of caution before concluding that the 5Ds is in a different league from the 5D III. We don't have a direct comparison, and it is entirely possible that the 5D III would give nearly identical perfomance regarding noise in the shadows. The tricky thing with such test as well as real use, is that the shadow noise characteristics vary a lot depending on the light and contrast in the scene. A small patch lifted X stops to brighness level N does not show the same noise as another patch lifted the same stops X to brightness level N.

Remember, the 5D II that could show banding after only a 2 stop push in some circumstances, could look ok lifted 4 stops in another circumstance. This was one of the main reasons why people could not agree on the magintude of the problem.



Jun 08, 2015 at 08:43 AM
mttran
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


alundeb wrote:
A word of caution before concluding that the 5Ds is in a different league from the 5D III. We don't have a direct comparison, and it is entirely possible that the 5D III would give nearly identical perfomance regarding noise in the shadows. The tricky thing with such test as well as real use, is that the shadow noise characteristics vary a lot depending on the light and contrast in the scene. A small patch lifted X stops to brighness level N does not show the same noise as another patch lifted the same stops X to brightness level N.

Remember,
...Show more

+1, exactly - what Dan has so far valid only in one test for the normal DR case. Using DR dpreview tool: http://tinyurl.com/qh7urzy and move the desire segment around the test frame and changing some iso tab to simulate the DR and the cam noise response from the display then visualize how those embedded 5dsr, 5d3, 6d , d750, a7r & d810 IQ performance in real life. Dan, your DR and noise is a function of your cam and lens setting plus the angle of the sun and I repeat what Ander said: "This was one of the main reasons why (you and some) people could not agree on the magintude of the (DR) problem." since the canon banding ages.




Jun 08, 2015 at 10:02 AM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


To clarify one thing further: What I did here correlates to what photographers dealing with real-world exposure problems such as very dark, blocked shadows are likely to do. (Though I set up this case to deal with only a single variable, the "exposure" slider." I did not constrain the adjustments here to the shadows only, as I would actually do with a situation like this. Another way to get at the same thing might be to raise black point and then perhaps compensate using other adjustments like shadows and/or contrast.)

It is important to know and understand the source and meaning of examples shared to illustrate performance comparisons between camera files. For example, I've seen some files used to suggest what photographers will likely see in real images from a camera like the 5Ds that were the result of very different processes, and this is not always revealed by those posting such images. Readers are instead left to imagine incorrectly that real world camera performance would be as awful as it appears, for example, in test images from an article used to discuss how so-called "ISO-less" cameras and others (like the Canon cameras) handle a subset of exposure types very differently. I've seen examples said to be representative of 5Ds performance that were created not in ways that typical photographers are likely to use but which instead came from an experiment comparing how two camera systems deal with ISO settings to produce, say, 3200 ISO images.

There is nothing wrong with that, and it is interesting data, but it begs two questions.

1) Why not be completely open about the source of the images and how they were created? No harm is done by revealing sources, unless the source is not important or if revealing it might make the case less strong — and if that is the case, why not let readers/viewers decide? The more we know about the source images the more we can understand about what they do and do not mean.

2) If the images came from, for example, a test showing what would happen if one tried to achieve ISO 3200 on a Canon camera by setting the camera to ISO 100 and then pushing it to ISO 3200 (or some other value) in post, why not also share the (rather good) image quality that results from using the sample camera in the way the manufacturer designed it to be used — e.g. by simply setting the camera to ISO 3200? Using one camera in the way it was designed to work and the other in a way that is completely not the way it was designed to work is not the most useful comparison of real-world photography performance. Might that weaken the case for using such images as the test case? If not, why not be open about the circumstances?

In general, posting some image into a thread without any reasonable way to understand specifically what it represents is not a great idea. In the worst case, it suggests that the poster may have something to hide.

Edited on Jun 08, 2015 at 01:41 PM · View previous versions



Jun 08, 2015 at 11:22 AM
mttran
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


I deleted what I said earlier after re-read what you just said Dan...now I still don't understand why you have flipped-flopped your thinking regarding the canon DR noise since canon banding ages ... Imo, it is really strange logic that what you have said. I believe you have your own reason to leave Ronno's thread and create the same exactly discussion in this thread. Hope you don't mind if I ask what is the purpose of splitting these threads, Dan


Jun 08, 2015 at 12:11 PM
Jeff Nolten
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


Thanks for posting the sequence Dan. Assuming that pushing Lightroom shadows slider to +100 is one stop, I've probably never felt the need to push shadows more than about two stops total. This explains why I've never incurred the problems so many others seem to agonize over. Pushing two stops in your example above brings out some detail in the boat hull, all that would probably be needed in this case IMHO. I'm sure there are scenarios where more would be needed.


Jun 08, 2015 at 12:43 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thanks for posting the sequence Dan. Assuming that pushing Lightroom shadows slider to +100 is one stop, I've probably never felt the need to push shadows more than about two stops total. This explains why I've never incurred the problems so many others seem to agonize over. Pushing two stops in your example above brings out some detail in the boat hull, all that would probably be needed in this case IMHO. I'm sure there are scenarios where more would be needed.


I'm not quite sure what the +100 means on the shadows slider, except that it is 100% as far as you can raise it. It isn't quite the same as pushing by a stop (or whatever value) since it operates on the near black portion of the luminosity range. It sort of lets you push shadows while minimizing the effect on mid-range and lighter tones.

I have a method that I like to use in ACR in the raw conversion phase of post that does push shadows a bit, but rarely as far as +100. I do something like the following:

1. I increase contrast — perhaps as high as about +30.

2. I lower (or raise!) the black point slider to just before the point that black is at luminosity "0."

3. I raise (or rarely lower) the exposure slider to get the middle values roughly where I want them.

4. I raise the shadows fader to bring up shadow detail without losing the true black tones.

When shooting I'm usually more concerned about avoiding blown highlights than about ending up too dark in the shadows, I might tend to "underexposes" (by some standards) if necessary, with the intention of bringing back the shadow areas in post. In some cases I have to do some pretty serious adjustments there, usually in ACR, that may include raising the black point by up to perhaps +30, raising shadows a lot (very rarely all the way), raising the exposure slider (sometimes just a little but sometimes more than +1.00), and then compensating by lowering highlights (and perhaps then increasing contrast a bit more).

Perhaps surprisingly, the results often look quite good. Before I figured out this post-processing workflow (and before the latest versions of ACR and Photoshop provided this sort of flexibility) I more often had to use exposure blending. These days I hardly ever have to do that, even with subjects that include a very wide dynamic range.

YMMV,

Dan



Jun 08, 2015 at 01:50 PM
Jeff Nolten
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


Thanks Dan. My PP approach is very similar to yours. I try to avoid blown highlights by adjusting exposure in the camera then bring up the shadows in post. With this approach using the 5D3, its still rare that I find that the blacks have gone to zero and I usually reduce the black point a bit. I rarely lift exposure more than a stop and rarely go above 80 lifting the shadows. The exposure, shadows, and blackpoint adjustments can be additive so thats why I guestimate that I'm probably never lifting more than two stops. Recovering dark bird feather detail is probably the worst of it while trying to keep everything natural looking. Looking back at some examples, shadowed ruins in Canyon DeChelley or dark wood pagodas in Katmandu were well within the 5D3's capability.

Oh and Googling what 100% slider means in photographic terms didn't yield much. If some technical guru knows, I'd appreciated it. Cheers.

Edited on Jun 08, 2015 at 02:37 PM · View previous versions



Jun 08, 2015 at 02:35 PM
mttran
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


Dan, how we play hide and seek if you have me hidden


Jun 08, 2015 at 02:36 PM
artguy
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


gdanmitchell wrote:
I posted this earlier in another thread but thought it might interest people enough to warrant its own thread.

... The file is a raw format test image from http://www.photographyblog.com/previews/canon_eos_5ds_photos/. This was photographed with the 5Ds at ISO 100, f/8, 1/400 second. It isn't clear what lens was used, but it appears that it could have been either the 50mm f/1.8 STM lens or the 24-70mm f/2.8 II.

Opened the file in ACR. Made no adjustments to curves, color, etc. Let ACR automatically correct for CA. Default ACR sharpening used at 15 with masking at 50. Default ACR NR left on —
...Show more

Looks good in terms of how much one might want to dodge in real world photos, correctly exposed.

I have two 44" printers, so looking forward to making some real prints from the 5Dsr images.



Jun 08, 2015 at 03:28 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


accidental double post — sorry



Edited on Jun 08, 2015 at 06:55 PM · View previous versions



Jun 08, 2015 at 04:37 PM
gdanmitchell
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thanks Dan. My PP approach is very similar to yours. I try to avoid blown highlights by adjusting exposure in the camera then bring up the shadows in post. With this approach using the 5D3, its still rare that I find that the blacks have gone to zero and I usually reduce the black point a bit. I rarely lift exposure more than a stop and rarely go above 80 lifting the shadows. The exposure, shadows, and blackpoint adjustments can be additive so thats why I guestimate that I'm probably never lifting more than two stops. Recovering dark bird
...Show more

That's been my general experience, too. I'm not saying that having more DR would never be useful nor that I would turn it down if it came to me, but it isn't handicapping me at this point. If anything, the 5Ds files look like they will perhaps be a bit better than what we previously had from Canon, and that is a fine thing, too.

artguy wrote:
Looks good in terms of how much one might want to dodge in real world photos, correctly exposed.

I have two 44" printers, so looking forward to making some real prints from the 5Dsr images.


The closest I could come so far was to take a one of the earlier Canon sample files and resize it to 30" x 45" and then print sections of the upsized versions at full resolution. They look very good. I was encouraged by this so I repeated the process but upsized to 60" x 90". As you can imagine, these files look pretty soft at 100% magnification, but they would be usable.

More here: http://www.gdanmitchell.com/2015/02/06/new-canon-5ds-r-dslr-a-printing-test

Dan





Jun 08, 2015 at 04:39 PM
atodzia
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


I wonder if the sharpness of the 5DS will be similar to the sharpness of the 7D Mark II which has the same pixel size and an AA filter. I have a 7D2 and the files it produces are sharper then my 5D3. The newest 5DS raw images that are being discussed are really quite sharp, even without any sharpening done to them.


Jun 08, 2015 at 06:07 PM
kezeka
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Images: 5Ds RAWs with +5.00 Exposure: Noise and DR


Looks pretty good to me. The fact that there is still detail in that black area from the beginning after being pushed 3 stops is more than enough for my photography. It looks like Canon is getting its s*** sorted out regarding sensors, if a bit slowly.


Jun 08, 2015 at 06:13 PM
1
       2       3       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1
       2       3       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.