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Archive 2015 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!

  
 
Batty_F
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


I've been wondering exactly how much more powerful the Profoto B2 is than a good speedlight, like the Nikon SB-910. There's some potentially biased information as well as incorrect information around the web, so to make my own assessment, I rented a Profoto B2 and tested it next to my Nikon SB-910.

You can see the test here:
Profoto B2 test

TLDR: It looks like the Profoto B2 is approximately 1.1 stops brighter in the center of the image with a somewhat more even coverage than my SB-910 at 17mm zoom.

I have the B2 until Friday so if there's any flaw in my testing, feel free to point it out, I can correct it until then.



May 19, 2015 at 11:30 PM
tedwca
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


Test them both in similar modifiers, umbrellas, soft boxes, etc. You may see more of a difference then.


May 20, 2015 at 02:48 AM
Mark_L
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


The top of the line speedlights from canon, nikon etc. are around 70ws. Note for 1 stop more light you need to double the power.

The test you did is too dependant on the reflector which makes guide number such a misleading figure.



May 20, 2015 at 07:05 AM
Batty_F
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


The only reason I can think of where modifiers would make a difference is the spread of the light, the B2 does seem to have a wider spread than even 17mm on the speedlight, and the larger, more circular shape might also help, but why would there be a big difference compared to raw output?


May 20, 2015 at 10:22 AM
Batty_F
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


@Mark_L I never mentioned guide number. I'm measuring actual image brightness of two shots taken with the B2 and the speedlight in the same position.

The 1.1 stop difference does seem close to correct if the SB-910 is ~100ws and the Profoto B2 is ~250 ws, that is slightly more than 1 stop. Profoto's marketing says "as powerful as 5 average speedlights" but that is misleading because the SB-910 is not average.



May 20, 2015 at 10:25 AM
Mark_L
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


Batty_F wrote:
@Mark_L I never mentioned guide number. I'm measuring actual image brightness of two shots taken with the B2 and the speedlight in the same position.


The test you conducted is for all intents and purposes the same as guide number measurement (x amount of light at y distance and settings) where the type of reflector is very dominant.



May 20, 2015 at 10:44 AM
Gregg Heckler
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


The ability of strobes to use more efficient light modifiers makes all the difference in the world when it comes to light output. That's one of the ways they can get away with saying it can be up to 5 times more powerful. A silver lined reflector like the Profoto Magnum, Elinchrom Maxilite, or a large beauty dish add a much greater "volume" of light than can a 2" X 3" Speedlight head.


May 20, 2015 at 10:52 AM
Cphoto1954
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


This is interesting, I just ran some of my own tests the night before. I was curious as to what the true difference was between using a set of three Canon 600EX units against one Paul Buff Einstein unit.

I did one set up using a standard scenario for me, that being a Chimera soft box eight feet from the subject.

Here is the things that did not change;
Canon 5Dmk2 set at 100 ISO.
Shutter speed set at 1/250 second.
16” x 20” (Silver interior) Chimera with a single front diffuser 8’ from the subject.

Here are the light source variables with all set to full manual power;
THREE Canon units (set to 24mm) gave me a true F4 exposure.
ONE Einstein unit gave me a true F16 exposure.

That is a FOUR stop difference! So if I’m correct you need to double your (Canon or Nikon) units each time to get one more stop of power. So you need 48 Canon units to equal this Einstein?

I find it amazing that B&H does not list the flash guide number in the “Specifications” (or anywhere) for these B2 units that sell for $3,000.00. The Pro-photo site says it as F32 @ 6.5 Feet.

So going to back to the OP's question, it would seem something is off here in your calculations or testing.



May 20, 2015 at 04:45 PM
Batty_F
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


@Cphoto1954 Even Profoto only claims the B2 is equivalent to 5 average speed lights. Saying an Einstein outputs as much light as 48 600 EX's is stretching it, I would have to see that test conducted to believe it.


May 20, 2015 at 05:36 PM
Gregg Heckler
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


"That is a FOUR stop difference! So if I’m correct you need to double your (Canon or Nikon) units each time to get one more stop of power. So you need 48 Canon units to equal this Einstein?

I find it amazing that B&H does not list the flash guide number in the “Specifications” (or anywhere) for these B2 units that sell for $3,000.00. The Pro-photo site says it as F32 @ 6.5 Feet."

You can't compare Speedlights and strobe equally like this. And they don't measure Strobes in GN only Watt Seconds. Even watt second claims can be misleading based on the standard reflector's efficiency and flash tube design. As mentioned before it's all about the reflector or light modifier. Not only does the Einstein have 9 times more watt seconds than a Speedlight, it has a very shiny, silver, standard reflector concentrating the light output. The Speedlight has about a 2" X 3" reflector, no light modifier, and a tiny flash tube. The only way to even come close to comparing the two would be to zoom the Speedlight head in to about 35mm and put a 7" reflector on it.



May 20, 2015 at 07:25 PM
Cphoto1954
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


Gregg I agree with you in regards to GN and WS. Keep in mind that I did not have the silver reflector on my Einstein as the Chimera ring took its place so I could put the softbox on it.

Maybe I should have mentioned that my goal for the tests was to find out how my equipment performed for my “Real World” shooting needs. As I rarely use a light meter to measure flash anymore I wanted to see how much light I could generate with the combos of light I currently own using my visual measuring device which is an X-rite Color Checker. I always shoot with some diffuser over my flash units, whatever they may be so hence using them on my tests.


Batty – I think I was wrong, but here was my math.
3 Units = F4 to double that I would need 6 Units to get to F 5.6 (2x the original light).
To get from F 5.6 to F 8.0 you need to double that to 12 units (4x original light).
Double that to get to F 11.0 you would need 24 Units (8x original light).
Double that to get to F 16.0 and you need 48 Units (16x original light).

Now looking at this site I think it may be more like only 8-10 units.
http://neilvn.com/tangents/comparing-power-studio-lights-vs-speedlites-speedlights/
This also shows what Gregg is saying about the efficiency of the flash heads and reflectors. Note the straight-on power difference is not that great between the Nikon flash and PP B1, but once diffused it is quite a bit different. This site says he gets f4.5 and f11 respectively when diffused requiring 6-8 Nikon units to equal it. I was getting f4 and f16 so maybe mine would more likely be 10-12 flash units to get up to the Einstein.






May 20, 2015 at 09:55 PM
Batty_F
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


Ok, I updated the page with a modifier, the only one I have handy that fits both strobes is the Westcott Apollo strip box. It mounts the light in reverse, shooting backwards, and then reflecting out the front. It is single diffused.

Updated Profoto B2 test

So the B2 fared better in this test, when inside the Apollo the brightness on the wall was about 1.4 stops brighter with the B2, and also more even. In the SB-910 shot there is a much more noticeable hotspot in the center. If you look closely you can see I moved the Apollo, this is because the strobes mount differently, the movement was to place the front diffuser of the softbox at the same 4-foot distance from the wall.

@Cphoto1954 I've read Neil's article but I suspect he was shooting from the hip and did not intend his article as a scientific study of the B2's power.



May 20, 2015 at 11:50 PM
markd61
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


The reflector on a speed light does affect its performance in a modifier as they were originally designed to sit on a camera and fire directly at the subject. Professional lights are designed to mount in modifiers and thus take advantage of their reflective characteristics efficiently.

Batty's original test DOES show that the B2 is not that much more powerful than Speedlight in a direct flash configuration. Where it does excel is in the more efficient dispersion of photons in a soft box or other modifier. In this case, something like a Wistro would also do well as it has a protruding bare bulb. It would also deliver more light at the outset at 360 W/S.



May 21, 2015 at 08:57 PM
Batty_F
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


Some additional testing with the B2 revealed a surprising difference from the B1, HSS mode is not as efficient on the B2 as the B1. I expected them to be the same, but the B2 loses a complete extra stop of power in HSS compared to the B1.

For example, at 1/320 second on the B1, a given image is 1.4 stops darker at max power than the same image taken at 1/250 second. This is because HSS mode starts at 1/320 and it saps a lot of power.

However, on the B2, an image at 1/320 second is 2.4 stops darker at max power than the same image at 1/250 second. I have no idea why the B2 would be different in this way, I have not seen this mentioned anywhere.



May 21, 2015 at 10:56 PM
nixland
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


Sorry that my post is not about SB-910, but I think it will support Batty test result.

My test result with Canon 580EX II with setting :
Camera : ISO 100
Flash : Zoomed at 50mm, full power
Light modifier : shot through white umbrella

I got f16 at 60cm(~2 feet).

So theoritically it is equal to f4 at 2.5m(~8 feet)
and if I add 2 more speedlight it will be f7.
To get the f16 I need 16 speedlights.

But Batty use 24mm zoom while I use 50mm zoom, so I assume that if I use the same zoom setting it could roughly have the same result with his test.

Correct me if I am wrong





May 21, 2015 at 11:52 PM
Batty_F
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


I had to send the B2 back to LensRentals, but one additional note on TTL. Profoto's TTL is pretty good, one of the better implementations I've seen lately, but it still suffers from the same problem that every TTL has except for Nikon's i-TTL: it doesn't consider the coverage of the light.

For example, I added some images that show the exact problem on my test page

The issue is if you place the B2 close to a subject, say 2 feet from a wall, so that the light emitted by the B2 only covers a small portion of the wall, then you take a wide picture of the wall including areas that are not hit by the light, the center of the frame will be vastly overexposed. If you take the same picture zoomed in so that the B2's light fills the frame, the TTL exposure will be correct. What I think is happening is the TTL algorithm sees the dark corners of the wide shot and turns up the flash exposure in a vain attempt to brighten the corners, which it can't because the light isn't shining there.

For some reason, Nikon's i-TTL does not suffer from this issue nearly as badly as other TTL implementations.



May 22, 2015 at 06:38 PM
Gregg Heckler
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


I don't think that's a problem for the types of imagery you shoot. The sample images you are shooting are the very extreme to which TTL can work for any type of flash. A white wall with black stuff on it. If you shot a wide array of tones like the costumed people you shoot, you aren't going to run into any trouble unless they have real shiny, all white, or all black costumes on. In that case you are always going to have to make some exposure compensation.

I'm curious as to how you are going to hold the B2, are you going to put it on a flash bracket? You might be better off with a Quantum if you need a lot of power.



May 22, 2015 at 09:28 PM
Batty_F
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


@Gregg Heckler I'm not going to use the B1 or the B2 right now, they're just not quite there yet for what we do. I would have my assistant carry the B2 in a soft box on a paint pole, probably with the battery on her belt.

So for now I'll continue with Nikon Speedlights and Pocketwizards, I can use a tri-flash bracket when we need power.



May 22, 2015 at 10:13 PM
Andrew Pece Photography
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


I can only comment on my experience with speedlights and the 600ws Rovelight. I used mainly SB 80dx's though, so they pack a little less punch than an SB-910. I used to bounce four SB -80dx's into ceilings all the time, and get nowhere near what the Rovelight can do. If I had to estimate, the rovelight is probably worth 8 to 10 SB-80dx's.


May 25, 2015 at 03:08 AM
kdphotography
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Profoto B2 vs Nikon SB-910!


For difficult situations, I would not rely on TTL as a crutch. Imho,---- that's the problem here. You can use the Profoto B2 (or B1) TTL functions to "get you close," switch in to manual and adjust your light or camera settings from there. Or use a light meter---I still can't get away from using my light meter.

I really did not want to like the Profoto B2 but bought them once I tried it. It's a great off-camera portable system (think modifiers) that is quick and easy to use. I wouldn't compare it to a speedlite. Put it this way: when I bought the Profoto B2, it was to complement (add-to) my lighting gear choices. Getting rid of speedlites was not part of the equation. Both have their places on the shelf and a limited power comparison really does not reveal what the B2 is capable of producing compared to a speedlite. I initially scoffed at the paltry 250WS rating of the Profoto B2---but the numbers alone do not tell the whole story. My wallet is a lot lighter because of it.

Would I want more power? I don't doubt that Profoto will eventually offer some sort of more powerful integrated Air system. I'm saving for it now.

My .02.




May 25, 2015 at 08:47 AM
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