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Archive 2015 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?

  
 
molson
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


Mike Sowsun wrote:
No, it is not common knowledge. Probably because it is not true. I just tested my 580EX II with a Pixel TD-381 and it makes no difference in a full power pop. It recycles faster but that is the only difference.



Please have the courtesy to at least read what I wrote, before calling me a liar...



May 25, 2015 at 10:57 AM
molson
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


jcolwell wrote:
I'm glad I never heard it before, because it is not true. I just tested a 600EX-RT with and without the CP-E4 external battery pack, and there's no difference. Camera 1DX on manual, t = 1/250 sec, ISO 100, lens Carl Zeiss 50/2 at f/22 (it's pretty bright).

I've posted example photos below, along with the PS CS6 historgams, and a comparitive 100% vew of the bottom-centre of the greytag ColorChecker chart.




Now try your test with a HIGH VOLTAGE battery pack and tell me what you see... it's not rocket science




May 25, 2015 at 11:03 AM
Mike Sowsun
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


molson wrote:
Please have the courtesy to at least read what I wrote, before calling me a liar...


I did read what you wrote, and I didn't call you a liar.

As others have said, it is not common knowledge. And as others have said after testing, it makes no difference.
To give you the benefit of doubt, I did say "probably not true".




May 25, 2015 at 11:12 AM
Mike Sowsun
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


molson wrote:
Now try your test with a HIGH VOLTAGE battery pack and tell me what you see... it's not rocket science



The CP-E4 is a high voltage external battery pack. Are you not aware of that?



May 25, 2015 at 11:15 AM
molson
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


Mike Sowsun wrote:
The CP-E4 is a high voltage external battery pack. Are you not aware of that?


Does it use AA batteries? If it does, it must be huge...

A high-voltage battery pack ranges from 125v to 325v - that would require between 83 and 217 AA batteries.

AA batteries cannot sustain full voltage output for the length of time it takes to fully charge a capacitor (unless you use hundreds of them at once...)



Edited on May 25, 2015 at 11:20 AM · View previous versions



May 25, 2015 at 11:19 AM
dhphoto
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


molson wrote:
Now try your test with a HIGH VOLTAGE battery pack and tell me what you see... it's not rocket science



In 35+ years of being a pro I have never heard of this.

AFAIK a capacitor charges a flash tube to it's optimum and it releases it's flash. Trying to pump more voltage in will simply blow the capacitor, not create any more light

If you want to prove your assertion you need to show some samples and some tech data to back it up.



May 25, 2015 at 11:20 AM
molson
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


dhphoto wrote:
In 35+ years of being a pro I have never heard of this.

AFAIK a capacitor charges a flash tube to it's optimum and it releases it's flash. Trying to pump more voltage in will simply blow the capacitor, not create any more light

If you want to prove your assertion you need to show some samples and some tech data to back it up.



Why do you think pro flashes have high-voltage sockets?

I don't have to prove anything, and I'm not about to go out and spend hundreds of dollars to educate people - so feel free to continue wallowing in ignorance.



May 25, 2015 at 11:23 AM
dhphoto
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


molson wrote:
I don't have to prove anything, and I'm not about to go out and spend hundreds of dollars to educate people - so feel free to continue wallowing in ignorance.


Poor response

E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E



May 25, 2015 at 11:28 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


It's possible that some high voltage external packs will drive a flash to higher output than the unit's GN rating, but I'm confident that the 600EX-RT and other 'pro' flash that I have owned in the past do achieve their rated GN output with their normal power source.


May 25, 2015 at 11:34 AM
Mike Sowsun
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


molson wrote:
Does it use AA batteries? If it does, it must be huge...

A high-voltage battery pack ranges from 125v to 325v - that would require between 83 and 217 AA batteries.

AA batteries cannot sustain full voltage output for the length of time it takes to fully charge a capacitor (unless you use hundreds of them at once...)



Many people make the mistake of not knowing that the Canon external battery packs are high voltage packs with approximately 300 volts output. You have over 11,000 posts so I am surprised you didn't know that.

You said you tested Canon flashes and were able to double the flash power. Which Canon flash and which "high voltage" external battery pack did you use to do your "test"?



May 25, 2015 at 11:35 AM
dhphoto
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


Just to help Molson out here is a link to the flash on the Canon website. No mention of this extra capacity, which you might expect them to mention

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/speedlite_flash_lineup/speedlite_600ex_rt#Specifications



May 25, 2015 at 11:38 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


Here's some questions that I sent to CPS Canada a couple of hours ago.

I have a set of four 600EX-RT and a combination of CP-E3 and CP-E4 external battery packs to drive them. I have a couple of quick questions, and I’d appreciate your input.

1. does the 600EX-RT unit reach its full GN 60m at 200mm coverage with ISO 100 using the 4-AA cell internal power source (assuming fresh batts)?

2. can the 600EX-RT unit output a GN higher than 60 (m) when using both the internal batteries and an external CP-E4 battery pack?

3. can the 600EX-RT unit output a GN higher than 60 (m) when using a “third party” high-voltage external battery pack?

Here's the answers that I had rceived when I returned from doing some stuff.

CPS Canada wrote:
1. Yes. You may refer to the Guide Number table in the manual on page 115. The table is all based on using the 4AA batteries.

2. No. The purpose of the CP-E4 pack is to help the flash to recharge/recycle quicker and give more flashes between battery changes (longer battery life).

3. Using an external power source other than Canon may result in a malfunction.


I'm out.



May 25, 2015 at 01:12 PM
dhphoto
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


jcolwell wrote:
Here's some questions that I sent to CPS Canada a couple of hours ago.

I have a set of four 600EX-RT and a combination of CP-E3 and CP-E4 external battery packs to drive them. I have a couple of quick questions, and I’d appreciate your input.

1. does the 600EX-RT unit reach its full GN 60m at 200mm coverage with ISO 100 using the 4-AA cell internal power source (assuming fresh batts)?

2. can the 600EX-RT unit output a GN higher than 60 (m) when using both the internal batteries and an external CP-E4 battery pack?

3. can the 600EX-RT unit output a GN

Here's the answers that I had rceived when I returned from doing some stuff.



I'm out.
...Show more

I look forward to Molson's reply



May 25, 2015 at 01:36 PM
dhphoto
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


molson wrote:
I don't have to prove anything, and I'm not about to go out and spend hundreds of dollars to educate people - so feel free to continue wallowing in ignorance.


Come on Molson, show me how I'm 'wallowing in ignorance', I'm still waiting

Or perhaps you could just admit you were completely wrong, arrogant and rude, how about it?



May 26, 2015 at 07:11 AM
DmitriM
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


molson wrote:
It's important to remember that you don't get the advertised guide number out of any of the Canon (or Nikon or Pentax, etc.) shoe-mount flash units unless you're using an external high-voltage battery pack.

If you're using only the internal AA batteries (regardless of type) you're typically only going to see about 50% of the rated output.

Or to put it another way, buy an external HV battery pack for your 580EX and get double the power you're seeing now.



lol,
What you said is completely untrue. A bunch made up numbers. I am not sure what agenda you have in spreading false information.
I would recommend for you to take your flash for repair as it is broken. This or you should educate yourself on this before making any further statements.



Jun 03, 2015 at 06:41 PM
Kisutch
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


Profoto B2



Jun 11, 2015 at 09:34 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


Kisutch wrote:
Profoto B2


The OP wants no external battery pack.



Jun 11, 2015 at 09:51 AM
Kisutch
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


Just curious, what do you need the power for? If you're not trying to overpower the sun or other bright ambient, can you just bump the ISO 1 stop and make your speedlite 2-x more powerful?

I'm guessing if you find some speedlite that still runs on four or five AA's and is twice as powerful as the rest, it's gonna cheat its way there with a long flash duration.




Jun 12, 2015 at 11:53 AM
dhphoto
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


DmitriM wrote:
lol,
What you said is completely untrue. A bunch made up numbers. I am not sure what agenda you have in spreading false information.
I would recommend for you to take your flash for repair as it is broken. This or you should educate yourself on this before making any further statements.



I notice Molson didn't reappear to apologise for being such a rude idiot.

No real surprise. But useful to remember.



Jun 12, 2015 at 03:04 PM
usuthu65
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Any on-camera flashes more powerful than 580ex?


Think about the physics. In a typical flash circuit, the fully charged capacitor is floating at ~300 V on its terminals. When triggered, it is connected to a step-up transformer moving the ~300 V on the capacitor terminals to a few kV, enough to overcome the ionization potential of the xenon gas in the flash tube and cause an arc. This produces the flash seen.

The capacitor provides a fixed impedance to the circuit, so a high voltage pack would indeed stuff charge into the capacitor fast (i.e. shorter time constant). But all this does is get one faster to a fully charged capacitor. This is why a set of four AA batteries (nominal voltage = 6V) can, if given enough time, supply enough charge to the capacitor to prime it for a flash.

So in other words, the voltage of the pack is a red herring here. As long as the pack has enough CHARGE to fully load the capacitor, this is all that matters.



Jun 18, 2015 at 10:20 PM
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