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Archive 2015 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!

  
 
sgilbert1967
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


Morning all,
Let me preface my post by assuring I am not trolling or attempting to start an argument, I just have a few observations and questions as a recent, from Nikon, convert..

I first picked up the 7Dm2, me and it have been struggling to first mimic my Nikon operations, then giving up and deciding how we want to operate instead..
I LOVE my 7Dm2, I love every custom feature, grip, layout, and starting to love the performance!! Keeper rates are steadily climbing!!!
Advice for other recent converts...
1. Turn off NR till its really needed, this is not Nikon guys the Canon NR ( which may work better at High ISO's ) it is VERY destructive to details on the 7Dm2. So much so that it was impacting sharpness, I just thought my new 70-200 2.8 USM IS II was soft wide open but it was the NR..just dont turn it on till you ACTUALLY start to push the sensor and need it...world of difference...( JPEG SPORTS SHOOTER )
2. Ignore all this AF case mess and trying to replicate our GROUP NO & 1 tracking, it just works different instead learn to get a feel for how this camera wants to operate...overall its better especially with subjects moving straight away..Dont get caught up in the CASE setting, to much to remember instead what I done is made one of my available custom menus basically a AF menu. The 3 important metrics that make up the AF CASE can be put there to be tuned quickly and individually per shooting scenario...Once I did this and started to apply shoot scenario logic, thinking about the individual metrics and how they change AF and NOT what CASE I want, the keeper rate has steadily improved....
3. Your going to LOVE being able to and limit every button and settin on the camera....
4. As a Sports shooter I spend a LOT of time at mid to high ISO, Im not saying dont believe what you ready but I will say the 7Dm2 sensor holds on pretty darn good up to ISO 6400 for a crop sensor ( and you get 1.6 vs 1.5 ).
5. Your going to love being able to MFA BOTH the tele and wide sides and with every lens Ive tried thus far they have been different...
6. Flicker detection...OMG...its NOT a GIMMICK feature...it truly works..IMHO it doesnt only even out color cast its syncing then taking the photo at the height of light cycle and it showed up in my shooting yesterday vs the 5Dm3 as true actual exposure increase not just an evening of color cast...HUGE for me ( and any sports shooter )...I think Canon ( nor reviewers ) havent spent nearly as much time exploring and pushing this feature..

If you got a copy that works as advertised its literally the best overall crop sensor camera on the planet, its SO good I cant even imagine what else id like it to be able to do..of coarse we would all want better IQ..oh I better throw out DR increase at ISO 100 ( im never at ) or ill get flamed by the DR range Nazi's ....

SO coming from Nikon full frame ( d800e/d750's ) of coarse I had to add a Canon FF...afterall the 7Dm2 was purchased to assume the role I envisioned the Nikon D400 of fulfilling but obviously Ill need full frame to compliment....Do I reach for 1DX or grab the 5DM3 for body continuity to the 7Dm2...since they are both at the end of product cycles due a refresh and being able to get a good deal on a Brand new with gift receipt 5Dm3 I went for that thinking it could work as good as my D750's for low light sports...WRONG!..Ill outlay some of what Im dissapointed in and fully accept a lot of it is my fault for having higher expectations coming from using Nikon D750's and learning Canon on the 7Dm2

1. The camera is slow to do everything in retrospect to the 7Dm2..not just frame rate it feels like everything it does from shutter lag to power on is slower..
2. It doesnt achieve 6fps in the same shooting scenarios the 7Dm2 ( or Nikon D750 ) does...It sounds more like 4fps..I set my 7Dm2 to 6fps after hearing this with as many settings the same as possible in manual mode and its obvious its not hitting the 6fps in actual use ( I swapped my 1000x card in too ). also a weird anomaly, I use back button auto focus exclusively...if I let off the AFON button ( which I do a lot preferring to set the AF as fast as possible and me be responsible for objects interrupting focal plane ) and shoot ITS EVEN SLOWER..its repeatable I can let off AF CLACK...........CLACK...........CLACK...hold AFON and it noticeably speeds up FPS? WTF? the 7Dm2 ( nor any other camera ive ever had ) does this in the same scenarios...( maybe the 7dm2 does and its just so fast I dont notice it as much )..
3. BUFFER....this is ENTIRELY my fault for not researching but assuming the 5Dm3 was a D800e level ( or D750 ) camera and it would have a decent buffer but its horrible..I shoot a lot of RAW plus Jpeg...editing the Jpeg for speed ( shoot thousands a week ) and keeping the raw to save me or the cameras metering miscalculations and/or for more careful processing of a money shot...The buffer is 7 in this scenario...SRAW plus Jpeg same thing...WOW thats horrible ( I gave Nikon grief for the buffer in the d7100 but thats a $900 camera ). whats crazy is it must not be buffer but under powered on processor because it will give you MORE buffer with RAW + RAW than Raw plus any size jpeg or Sraw plus anysized jpg...I love the Sraw plus jpeg on the 7Dm2..
4. Another disappointment thats entirely my fault, I just again assumed direct competitors in 2015 would all have EC in auto iso in manual mode ( my Sony a77 from forever ago had it ). This is HUGE to me as at this part of the season I routinely shoot from shadow to direct sunlight ect where a manual ISO wont cut it...and spot metering wont entirely either...Since the AUTO ISO features only allow me to specify a minimum SS at the maximum of 1/250 then its also useless to set in AV...I never want to shoot under 1/640 FF ( 1/800 crop for sharpness ) so AV mode is OUT...in TV mode it starts to move the aperture up off 2.8 and I lose subject isolation..I have become very accustomed to setting the SS to what I feel is appropriate for the scenario ( and later making concessions I CHOOSE as I lose light ) and keep the lens wide open for subject isolation...this is a huge blow to me during baseball and possibly football season...I am truly astonished in 2015 it doesnt have it especially when coupled with the woeful for 2015 AUTO ISO implementation..It competitors and a class under ( d750 ) both have it....if this was the 7Dm2 I could just limit the max aperture in the settings at 2.8 but the 5dm3 doesnt give me the choice of minimum shutter speeds faster than 1/250, nor EC in manual, nor the ability to lock the aperture at 2.8....kind of crazy and perfectly fixable in firmware ( I was around to remember what the 7d 2.0 firmware done...so dont tell me they cant more can be done in firmware than most of us cared to admit )
5. Auto review does something weird..since the EC doesnt work in manual I was trying to chimp quickly..Auto Review was showing very underexposed but then when I went back and looked later they were exposed properly and the after adjustments over exposed..the camera displays the Auto Review more than a stop under..but you can hit the playback and it will be correct..I think its something in the LCD auto brightness..
6. being able to cycle through AF modes via the 7dm2 lever is awesome, I can use the button and wheels to manipulate it on the 5dm3 but one thing I like to do is start a shot ( remember im at 300mm and 2.8 ) with the AF group in one spot for example over to left quadrant then hit the center joystick button the group to center when runners take off...I was able to do this on Nikon and 7Dm2 but not 5dm3 let me know if there is a way...
7. Flicker detection...let me say shooting both at the same time under the lights last night...the 7Dm2 flicker detection isnt a gimmick its real and game changing...not only does it even out color cast it literally resulted in a higher expose given the same settings...HUGE IMHO...

I think I may have a fairly unique take converting from another brand to the 7Dm2 first then adding the 5dm3. The 5Dm3 may seem similar in body but its not remotely the level of camera ( minus the sensor ) that the 7dm2 is..its menu limitations and operational speed make it feel very old in comparison to the D800, D750, and especially the 7Dm2...if I am correct in my understanding of the camera ( please feel free to help me ) then it doesnt speak as badly to the 5Dm3 ( except where it fails vs competitors ) but it speaks volumes of just how good the 7Dm2 really is.....This has been a roller coaster of highs with the 7Dm2 ( finally getting the speed and body I craved ) and lows ( realizing the 5dm3 FPS aside, isnt remotely in the same class as the 7dm2, d750, or d800e ). The 7Dm2 best anything ive ever owned for handling, customization, and performance hands down love it....the 5dm3 is easily bested by the d800/810 d750..whats sad is that a few areas could be addressed in firmware to get it up to more equal footing.....

I think I have the auto review figured out, but if anyone could help me with why it wont attain 6fps ( especially when not actively auto focusing in AI servo ) with highlight tone priority, AIE, and lens corrections off in manual AI servo please let me know....if there is some way to force the exposure triangle to 1/640 ( and above ) @ f2.8 with exposure compensation please let me know that as well.....

It may be unfair but I realize now all I want is a 7Dm2 with a full frame sensor and the FPS crippled to whatever Canon Marketing decides wont cannibalize the 1DX mark II sales out of the 5Dm4 and Im a very happy man...its so ironic I swapped to Canon because Nikon would not give me the speed, reach , and body in crop ( d400 ) to compliment my FX cameras...Canon gives me that but doesnt give me the complimentary full frame haha..ive exactly reversed!!




May 05, 2015 at 09:37 AM
Nate Haskovec
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


You bought the flagship sports camera in crop format. Why did you not buy the 1dX as your FF camera?

The 5d3 is a decent sports camera, but the 1dX is excellent.



May 05, 2015 at 09:42 AM
molson
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


sgilbert1967 wrote:
Morning all,
Let me preface my post by assuring I am not trolling...


Nice troll post.

Maybe next time you can RTFM before posting another long, rambling tirade about something you don't understand?



May 05, 2015 at 10:03 AM
sgilbert1967
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


Nate Haskovec wrote:
You bought the flagship sports camera in crop format. Why did you not buy the 1dX as your FF camera?

The 5d3 is a decent sports camera, but the 1dX is excellent.


I am so happy with the 7Dm2, I assumed the 5DM3 would give me at least the performance of my D750 or D800 ( ISO 3200/6400 where I normally reached for FF )..I should have drilled down into the details its entirely my fault..but im cautioning others who are contemplating the swap to Canon in the continued absence of a D400 for reach and speed...the 5Dm3 ( which cost what 1000 more than the 7D mark2 and it cant be all sensor look at the 6D and the 7dmark 2 uses basically the same body so...wheres that 1000 going if the processor is slower the buffer lower...I have the money setting in paypal for a 1DX BUT a few things kept me from pulling...
1. Price right before a refresh...I preferred to grab the 5dm3 on a good deal and hopefully the ROI before the Mark IV is released yields more resale with more made made up to that point in comparison...in other works at my level my 2500 can pay for itself and hold some value at Mark IV release ( being immenent reading the tea leaves? ) where as a 4600 camera may not and will probably take a much higher hit with the 1Dx mark II release...remember I have lens ive had to move and hold on to 2 sets as well till i liquidate everything....
2. Body continuity.. the bodies seem to be identical that REALLY appeals to me...I had planned to wear the 5dm3 on my harness with cap and as night falls just screw my 7Dm2 off the 300 2.8 replacing it with the 5dm3 and keep shooting till end...
My post was 2 fold...
1. Warn other Nikon converts that are enomoured with the 7Dm2 ( and pissed at the d7200 being considered a d400 ) that while its clearly superior to anything Nikon DX outside ISO 100 DR, the inverse is NOT true on the Full frame side ( with the 1dx over the d4s maybe ).
2. Make sure I am not missing a setting or combination of settings which has me unnecessarily stressing...

3. On a positive note I cant tell a hill of beans difference in IQ ( unlike what you read ) between vendors, and I love the small raw option..and Flicker detection is REAL!!!

If I am misunderstanding something or there is a setting that will help me let me know, I did discover that the auto review issue is related to the 5dm3 storing the ambient light with your face to the view finder so that when it auto reviews with teh LCD in AUTO its lower...turning LCD to Manual seems to have solved this ( but the 7d mark 2 doesnt do this )...

Minimum SS and EC in manual arent camera design issues they could be alleviated with firmware and should be updated..what the hell good does a minimum of 1/250 do hehe..I really thats probably flash sync speed...

Do you guys think Im right and the buffer isnt the limiter to 7 in jpeg vs raw its the processor because file size should be larger RAW PLUS RAW ( 14 ) vs Raw plus jpeg ( 7)?



May 05, 2015 at 10:26 AM
sgilbert1967
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


I wanted the D7200 sensor in the D800 body while Nikon...and now I want the 5Dm3 ( or 1DX sensor ) in the 7Dm2 body and feature set...ive literally entirely inverted lol...the silver lining is it wont truly hurt me as bad until basketball season so...there is time for a Mark IV/1DX mark 2 announcement between now and then....




May 05, 2015 at 10:30 AM
sgilbert1967
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


does anyone actually get 6fps out of their 5Dmark III in AI SERVO? if you have a 7Dm2 put it on 6fps and try simultaneously or back to back...( im not getting 6fps and i dont even get 3 unless I am actively holding the AF ON button down )




May 05, 2015 at 10:32 AM
Paul Mo
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


We know Canon and wilfully cripple some of their cameras. We also know that Nikon had the benefit of releasing the D750 after the 5D3, and easily bested it. We also know Nikon are not above using some of the best sensors on the planet.

OP, is the biggest issue burst rate?



May 05, 2015 at 10:48 AM
Mike Sowsun
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


I get 6fps with my 5D3 and 70-200 II in AI Servo. I only write to the CF card though. Are you writing to the SD card? I think it that may be your problem.


May 05, 2015 at 10:51 AM
Nate Haskovec
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


Mike Sowsun wrote:
I get 6fps with my 5D3 and 70-200 II in AI Servo. I only write to the CF card though. Are you writing to the SD card? I think it that may be your problem.


This is absolutely a bottle neck if you are using the SD card.

Also, the 1066x Lexar CF card significantly helped my buffer and write speeds.



May 05, 2015 at 11:12 AM
whumber
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


sgilbert1967 wrote:
does anyone actually get 6fps out of their 5Dmark III in AI SERVO? if you have a 7Dm2 put it on 6fps and try simultaneously or back to back...( im not getting 6fps and i dont even get 3 unless I am actively holding the AF ON button down )



Yeah, I never had any trouble with framerate when I had a 5D3. If you set it to focus-priority you can see the framerate slow down but otherwise, unless the shutter speed is too slow, you should be able to hit 6fps without issue. Also, the buffer issue you're experiencing is most likely due to using the SD card. This is one of the major flaws of the 5D3 as writing out anything to the SD card, even if it's the supersmall jpg size, will limit the CF controller to the same speed as the terrible SD controller Canon put in the 5D3. The buffer with just the CF card is actually pretty good.



May 05, 2015 at 11:27 AM
MayaTlab
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


Regarding the fps rate, on the 5DIII, it's affected by battery level. Below a certain charge, the fps drops.

Otherwise the upcoming 5DIV, which I expect to be a FF 7DII (with a framerate between the current 5DIII and 7DII), will fix most of your issues.



May 05, 2015 at 11:33 AM
kezeka
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


Mike Sowsun wrote:
I get 6fps with my 5D3 and 70-200 II in AI Servo. I only write to the CF card though. Are you writing to the SD card? I think it that may be your problem.


I have the same results with my 5D3 - 6 FPS for 30-ish frames when using a lexar 1066x CF card. With an SD card, you can shoot 6 fps for maybe 10-15 frames before a huge drop in frame rate. Clearly, all of this depends heavily on having enough light to properly track a subject and your AF settings.




May 05, 2015 at 11:49 AM
sgilbert1967
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


Thanks for the responses guys,
Yes I am using the SD card as well...Raw to CF and JPEG to SD ( my logic )...interesting man that blows because I dont trust a single card ive been bitten TWICE!!!

I do have the focus priority set to focus but I also do on the 7Dm2 at 6fps which it seems to achieve....I know im not articulating it well but could one of you verify that IF you REMOVE your thumb from AF-ON ( stopping focusing ) that your frame rate slows noticeably? Which doesnt occur on the 7Dm2 even set to 6fps..( nor my Nikons )?

I do have a 1066x lexar in my 7Dm2 but perhaps based on limited buffer Ill swap them out to help the 5Dm3...

One more question did your 5Dm3's come from factory with AF-ON set ready to go?

To the other poster my biggest complaint is no EC while using AUTO ISO in Manual, coupled with the inability to set a minimum shutter higher than 1/250 ( so weird they dont give a few more ), in addtion with the inability to keep the aperture at 2.8...so basically the auto ISO is severely crippled for changing light in sports shooting scenarios...IF one wants to keep their high dollar 2.8 glass at 2.8....this is firmware up gradable folks..followed closely by a 7 frame Raw plus jpeg buffer...but I not a spray n pray type ( shoot 3rd burst like a m16 hehe ) but thats pretty bad...and entirely my fault for not knowing..

My biggest concern is that Im doing something wrong not getting 6fps or my camera is defective...

MayTiab yes if the Mark IV is basically a 7Dm2 with a full frame sensor and 6+ real FPS then I am such a happy customer!!!

for the record I wasnt dogging Canon ( love my 7dm2 ) that the 5dm3 doesnt outperform a d750 or d800 via image quality ect...but they could give it EC in manual easily like the others.....I made the comparison in that I assumed certain features would be present in this level of body...and you know what they say about that

and I wanted to share its ironic all I did was flip roles ( well I did gain the 70-200 IS USM II which is superb ) and I have the Crop I want and not the Full frame, whereby in Nikon I had the FX I wanted and not its DX compliment hehe...



May 05, 2015 at 12:04 PM
sgilbert1967
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


MayaTlab wrote:
Regarding the fps rate, on the 5DIII, it's affected by battery level. Below a certain charge, the fps drops.

Otherwise the upcoming 5DIV, which I expect to be a FF 7DII (with a framerate between the current 5DIII and 7DII), will fix most of your issues.


Ill check this out, I have a grip coming does that help?




May 05, 2015 at 12:05 PM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


I know Shawn isn't a troll, because he sold me his D800e! At that time, he was going to turn around to buy the D810, but obviously rethought his sports/action needs after the 7D2 became widely hailed.

He shoots a lot of school sports and posed athlete shots, and is constantly working -- really impressive work!

Shawn -- Some good advice here on the SD card effect on FPS. I'm no expert on the 5D3, having only used it a few times, and in my limited needs. IIRC, check to make sure there aren't settings enabled for JPGs to affect the highlight capture and all NR functions -- set to OFF.

Perhaps the 1DX would have been better for you. It is an awesome camera. Not sure if it has the FL flicker feature though. Maybe when it is upgraded to its next incarnation?

Anyhow, I'm glad you like the 7D2 so much and hope you find the features you need in FF. Good luck.



May 05, 2015 at 12:15 PM
sgilbert1967
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


Thanks, ( aside from the EC in manual ) I think thats whats going on here...Im SO enamoured with the 7Dm2 that the 5Dm3 isnt holding up to THAT standard...I really feel like the Mark IV will be my personal Holy Grail load out to complement the 7Dm2 ( for the price )...

I got updates...I put my Toshiba 1066x alone no SD ( 95mb sec extremes ) in the 5dm3 by itself AND a freshly charged Canon Battery...it DOES seem to get to 6fps now ( maybe it was the battery )..a previous poster mentioned 30 RAW im only showing 11 raw as my buffer but with the 1066 alone it still shoots decent once full... So ill test tonight at the game but either the battery or the card seem to have it shooting 6fps now.....Disappointing buffer aside I can make do, like I said im only going to pull it out after the 7dm2 needs more than ISO 4000.....

On the flicker detect, I just wanted to let Nikon and Canon shooters know its not a gimmick its real...and its not just an evening of color cast for jpeg shooters in which case if you shoot raw it doesnt matter...no it actually gives you more exposure for the same settings in manual, with manual ISO shooting at 2.8.. in fact my 300 2.8 can gather more light with its 105mm objective lens with no filter, and Im using a UV filter ( middle of the road ) on the USM Mark 2 so..It should have been backwards... the flicker detection doesnt just give you color cast, it raises available light for a given exposure and also you know that flood light effect you can get? it eliminates that on about 85% of the exposures....

Im very tired if I get time tonight Ill try to do some back to back with maybe an example! Im not here to troll, im here to help, inform, and gather information if MINE is bad.....

Thanks for the help new community friends!!!

Thanks for the endorsement Gunzorro!! you know I love them 14bit Raw d800 files but my money is made primarily sports and action events as im sure you see on my fb hehe...and canon has that locked up...also the 70-200 2.8 USM IS II is the finest zoom ive ever put in my hands ( including a VR2 ) ...

I think I expected to much out of the 5dm3 ( watching youtube videos ) I mean after all it is long in the tooth, but I think the 5d mark iv is going to really complete my holy grail kit for reasonable money....

I report real world findings and make sure I have a full battery at the start of the games this evening!!!!and leave the fast CF card in the mark 3...but im telling you guys there may be some trouble with some 7Dm2's BUT if you get a good copy is one excellent camera..I paid $1520 for mine with Canon grip and extra off brand battery it had 600 actuations...best 1500 ive ever spent!!!



May 05, 2015 at 12:39 PM
MayaTlab
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


sgilbert1967 wrote:
Ill check this out, I have a grip coming does that help?



No idea, I never used it with a grip.




May 05, 2015 at 01:31 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


As per point number 6 about the 5D3. You can set it up that pushing the joystick in will go to the centre point or group. That should be the same as the 7D2. It is probably in the Custom Controls menu or maybe somewhere else. As you have now found out, using the SD card slot is useless unless you are just doing casual slow 1FPS shooting. I don't use my 5D3 for anything action oriented anymore as I like to have a backup on my other card also.


May 05, 2015 at 01:54 PM
ruhikant
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


Also note that 5D3's FPS reduces when Battery power is at two bars or less.


May 05, 2015 at 02:19 PM
sgilbert1967
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Recent Convert adds 5Dm3 to his 7Dm2 and is dissapointed!!


Guys, I think the new battery was bad....it acts weird and my Watson dual charger will LCD display won't even show its on there ( Watson charger allows you to use different plates for Canon nikon ect batteries I've used it with a lot of stuff)....I pit a fresh charged battery from the 7dm2 in it and now the fps sounds normal as long as i hold the AFON down....wonder if Canon will act right about it? Anyone else ever get a new bad battery....


May 05, 2015 at 02:42 PM
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