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Archive 2015 · The female point of view

  
 
MRomine
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · The female point of view


lilyphoto wrote:
There have been a handful of occasions where the bride has talked to me about why she specifically wanted a female photographer instead of a male. All the responses were that they:
1) Felt uncomfortable having a guy in the dressing room documenting the getting ready portion of the day.
2) Didn't feel that a male would have the same attention to detail as a female and know what moments/details/etc. are important to them to have captured.


#1 Is one of the main reasons that I brought on a female 2nd, this was an issue for me.

#2 There is no way I can convince a bride that I can do this very well without showing her photos. Regardless of what I say. Even though I generally get better bride detail shots than any of my three female shooters.



May 04, 2015 at 07:00 PM
MattGruber
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · The female point of view


friscoron wrote:
As for Matt, I'm actually surprised that hasn't come up yet, but that's one reason why my 2nd photographer is a female. (It's not my wife, tho. She couldn't shoot her way out of a paper bag.)


I was a little surprised, too. But then again, I always figured if they're hiring someone named Matt, they are probably comfortable with a male photographer. Ditto on the wife thing hahah!



May 04, 2015 at 07:09 PM
ohsnaphappy
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · The female point of view


I have nothing to add really, except that, in my area, there's only one male wedding photographer that's successful. A few trying to be. But everything is women. Every vendor. Every venue. Every conversation - all women.

I LOVE it! I hate men, haha! I've always loved women's fashion, models, shoes, purses, you name it. So the wedding world is kind of heaven for me



May 04, 2015 at 07:29 PM
mirrorrim
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · The female point of view


nolaguy wrote:
Jaclyn, with all the respect in the world, I get your reaction to that comment but there may be a case to be made that your staunch rebuttal is one reason why this sort of discussion is so avoided. I began this thread poking fun at our male selves and under other circumstances or topics I'd like to think you could do the reverse.


I dont mind poking fun. If I was obsessed with all the pretty things and swooning over every wedding detail and tearing up at every vow and squealing over vintage furniture in the grass...I wouldn't be here I just find it rude where the topic is specifically talking about a woman's perspective to come on and remind everyone..."don't forget, their opinion most likely doesn't matter." Yes, we are all going to have our own points of view and it's smart to make choices based on your target market, but why say that? I'm touchy about this because I know I'm in the super minority here. Why should I feel comfortable saying what I think after someone says that?

As for the matter I missed... of course that's a big deal. I really love and above average, understand women... or so I'm told. But to be so focused on the legalities and totally miss the emotional aspect in that situation... I WAS a moron.

And if there are concerns a groom should think about that you "wouldn't in a million years" consider, you may be as big a goof as I am.


Edit: Since I'm only responding to one comment and not the intent of your thread:

It's probably fair to say FM membership is predominantly male - and both empirical and anecdotal evidence may indicate we're largely morons when it comes to most effectively appealing to fair maidens.

If you want to appeal to me, don't tell me how you think I should think ;-)

You can find it shocking that you didnt think about what the bride might want, and I can find it shocking that you are assuming she would be with a groom who doesnt care or know what she wants.



May 04, 2015 at 09:12 PM
nolaguy
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · The female point of view


mirrorrim wrote:
I dont mind poking fun. If I was obsessed with all the pretty things and swooning over every wedding detail and tearing up at every vow and squealing over vintage furniture in the grass...I wouldn't be here I just find it rude where the topic is specifically talking about a woman's perspective to come on and remind everyone..."don't forget, their opinion most likely doesn't matter." Yes, we are all going to have our own points of view and it's smart to make choices based on your target market, but why say that? I'm touchy about this because I know
...Show more


Oh dear. This is so illogical, such a cliché and so the polar opposite of the clear intent of the thread I have to bow out here and leave it to anyone else with sufficient intellect and courage to respond.




May 04, 2015 at 11:18 PM
friscoron
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · The female point of view



mirrorrim, I just don't quite get where you think this thread is about women's opinions not mattering. While some of this was tongue-in-cheek, the gist of this thread is how much women's opinions matter, and trying to figure out how we doofus guys actually fit in here, how manage to navigate with some success in a woman's world (the wedding), and what some of us are doing (like getting married ourselves, and forcing our wives to be slave laborers for us) to attain any success.

note: probably not a good idea, but the slave labor comment was purely a joke.



May 04, 2015 at 11:58 PM
nolaguy
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · The female point of view


Thank you, Ron.



May 05, 2015 at 12:33 AM
heikoM
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · The female point of view


We are a husband and wife team and our name clearly state that.

I assume much of our success is because we are two genders. You get the best of both (presumed of course) worlds.

We only had it once, that a bride clearly stated that my wife do the bridal prep, other then that we do like it fits for us.

We also both meet the client the first time. I learn from this here that my wife may take on a larger portion of what we have to say in the first meeting.


heiko




May 05, 2015 at 05:52 AM
Mark_L
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · The female point of view


mirrorrim wrote:
I find this comment very irritating. Perhaps it's not meant to be offensive, but there are so few women on these boards and whether the guys know it or not, I've seen lots of little comments like this meant to undercut a woman's opinion. These boards are filled with mostly men agreeing about how to look at something, so to say "oh that woman's opinion doesn't represent the majority, so don't take it too seriously" well I find that a bit contradictory and demeaning. Guess what--men disagree on subjects too, so I guess from now on I'll make sure to
...Show more

My intention was never to discredit or otherwise discriminate against a female opinion, my intent was to make the point that women’s are all individual (as are all people) and not to treat them the same as a group based off one opinion. So rather than rush out and change things thinking they’ve been doing it ‘wrong’, have a think about whether it represents the majority of their target market first just as we should with any new piece of info.

lilyphoto wrote:
I'm female. :-)
There have been a handful of occasions where the bride has talked to me about why she specifically wanted a female photographer instead of a male. All the responses were that they:
1) Felt uncomfortable having a guy in the dressing room documenting the getting ready portion of the day.
2) Didn't feel that a male would have the same attention to detail as a female and know what moments/details/etc. are important to them to have captured.

Number 1 I can see how that can be a tough one to get around. #2 I think is more of a stereotype that
...Show more

(2) is a difficult one to shake despite men being over-represented in the top fashion photographers, chefs, hair stylists etc.

A plea to everyone: though I posted a provocative response to nolaguy (because I think he could take it well) please don’t let this thread get out of hand since the topic is a relevant one.



May 05, 2015 at 06:33 AM
IrishDino
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · The female point of view


If anything, the women are fine with me during the getting ready; it's the guys who get uncomfortable.


May 05, 2015 at 08:36 AM
Nikon_14
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · The female point of view


Glort would certainly liven up this thread.


May 05, 2015 at 12:52 PM
mirrorrim
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · The female point of view


[friscoron wrote:
mirrorrim, I just don't quite get where you think this thread is about women's opinions not mattering. While some of this was tongue-in-cheek, the gist of this thread is how much women's opinions matter, and trying to figure out how we doofus guys actually fit in here, how manage to navigate with some success in a woman's world (the wedding), and what some of us are doing (like getting married ourselves, and forcing our wives to be slave laborers for us) to attain any success.

note: probably not a good idea, but the slave labor comment was purely a joke.


I agree with the gist. I was ready to add my say when I saw Mark_L's post, and had to respond to it. It's why I specifically quoted him.

[Mark_L wrote:
My intention was never to discredit or otherwise discriminate against a female opinion, my intent was to make the point that women’s are all individual (as are all people) and not to treat them the same as a group based off one opinion. So rather than rush out and change things thinking they’ve been doing it ‘wrong’, have a think about whether it represents the majority of their target market first just as we should with any new piece of info.


I think nolaguy is thinking I'm irritated that he started this thread, when really I just didnt like your comment Mark_L. Thanks for responding. I understand your point, just don't appreciate that it needed to be said. "People have different opinions. Take what works for you and forget the rest," is valid advice, I just find it unnecessary to point this out as a "female" thing and not an "in general" thing.

I've frustrated nolaguy, and I know he has good intentions starting this thread. I'm not asking for it to end. It is too bad he can't accept I feel differently and instead calls me cliched and illogical.

------------------

Anyway, now that I got that off my chest...to add to lilyphoto's list, I'd say a bride may feel more comfortable with a woman because she can physically relate to parts of the day. Wearing heels that hurt and having to act like her feet aren't really killing her, liking her make up, feeling confident about how she looks in a dress, in pain from that time of the month...these feelings can all trickle down and affect the photos. I trust that male photographers know how to work around most of these things, but some brides may feel a little insecure and sheepish bringing it up to a male photographer.

And if a bride is worried her make up doesn't look great, and she wants to ask her photographer what they think...I could see it going both ways whether or not she'd believed the response.




May 05, 2015 at 02:36 PM
glort
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · The female point of view


Nikon_14 wrote:
Glort would certainly liven up this thread.


I'm enjoying sitting back not being the one that upset the apple cart.


For once.



May 05, 2015 at 08:41 PM
nolaguy
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · The female point of view


Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Is it possible to begin to summarize (or just point out) circumstances, moments, topics and so on wherein guys are most likely to miss something important - perhaps with anecdotal examples? It will be imperfect of course and not applicable to every situation - but can we construct a food-for-thought reference table of sorts?

For instance, I missed the Sally consideration skg pointed out. Why? Probably because I was solely focused on sorting out the objection and request that had been raised and I neglected to put it into context and take the fuller dynamics into account. In my eagerness to problem solve, I didn't fully define the "problem" - or maybe more accurately put, all I saw was an objection and failed to see Sally's possible built-in objections to her fiance's objection.


One could suggest those points have nothing to do with gender, it was just incomplete analysis on my part. But, whoops, in my gender barrel with natural blinders in place, maybe that's why I missed the fuller elements of the equation.

The posts I pointed out of Glort's could probably contribute to this list. Just going from memory, I believe he said there was one image he placed little stock in - then his wife more or less insisted they feature it and it became a meaningful success. How and why did he miss that?... can we give it a name, categorize it and learn from it?

Jump in and offer your stories. It doesn't have to be well thought out and certainly can be redundant or overlapping.

How do we best peel back this onion and grow more internally and externally aware?

Perhaps think of it as similar to Evan's FM Weddings FAQ stickied post... sort of a "Men Serving Female Clients" for Dummies, and so on.


Then, and this is where it gets even more interesting... what about the opposite - how do women miss how to most effectively reach, sell to and influence men? Probably another thread for another day...


Regards,

Chuck



May 06, 2015 at 12:08 AM
mirrorrim
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · The female point of view


nolaguy wrote:
Then, and this is where it gets even more interesting... what about the opposite - how do women miss how to most effectively reach, sell to and influence men? Probably another thread for another day...


This, I would like to know! You guys would probably be helping 4 of us here but I read these forums because it's such a different style of influence and you're mostly men.

I can say from experience when I do the groomsmen photos, in the beginning I can sense apprehension that I'm going to try to make things "girly" or at least use poses that mostly appeal to women and not men. I usually break the ice by saying I want their photos to be like the guys in Mad Men or GQ (if that seems to fit their personality)...but would love better tips. I also always ask about doing some goofy stuff too which usually makes them happy and more relaxed.

On the marketing side..I've noticed most guys love the more dramatic and technical photos. Their fiance gets sucked into the pretty stuff, then she shows my website to him, and he gets sucked into my off camera flash night shots and party photos. But honestly...I'm not marketing to him. My website is focused on the bride. Is there something I should be doing to pull him in more?



May 06, 2015 at 12:26 PM
glort
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · The female point of view



To get back to what I think was the original intent of the thread before it turned into a women's rights debate....

The case with the pic of the girl my wife picked was Biased.
I didn't like the girl. At all. She loved herself and thought the sun shone out her nether regions and if you want to turn me off, That's one of the best ways to do it.
Yeah, she may have been hot and had a killer body but I'm shallow. If I don't like them as people and personality wise, I'll never find them attractive.

This does come up a bit. I'll shoot a girl, come home, show my wife and tell her how gorgeous she was and I want to use her for promo pics. My wife ( and friends) will look at the pics and say shes nothing special or in fact Unattractive. I'll be saying She was a really nice, intelligent, kind hearted girl and My wife and others will be saying yeah but.... She's not promo material.

My wife says I fall in love with their minds too much and don't see the flaws in their looks. I think I have to fall in love with them for a few hours to be really motivated to push hard and believe in them to get the best out of them.
I'll say this much, I can look back and see the difference in what I have done for the few that did get me offside and I didn't like. :0(


I think a lot of men have trouble and plain don't consider who they are marketing to and what their clients POV is. To me, it's the same old thing I drone on about, Shooters lack of knowledge of Marketing and sales.

To me, it's just like the whole posting pics on Forums things. Yep, put your pretty pics up for other shooters to pat you on the back or nitpick you over. Pointless as far as what your customers think. Sure, get feedback but get it off the people paying you, not the ones who will never use your services.

Same with marketing.
I do well in my Glamour photography not because I am some great shooter, But because I have learned to shoot what appeals to women whom are my clients, not me. If I wanted to appeal to men, I could shoot open leg pics with the cheapest cam available and get a large percent of the male population certainly under 30 yo straight away. Appealing to females takes a bit more intelligence.

Women want to be sexy but they don't want to look cheap and easy. They want some sophistication. Most of all they want to alleviate their fears and concerns. I have had a lot of people try to take over the niche market I have created but they all fail. The first few clowns that came along including one that ripped the copy off my site page for page and then claimed that he only had to change a few words to avoid copyright issues, made me mad at first. Their attempts to rip off what I was doing was so blatant. I soon realized however that they would get no where when I showed their sites to female friends and clients and saw how repulsed they were by the pics shown.

I'll admit, I didn't pick up on a lot of it but to the women, the pics were sleazy and off putting for elements I couldn't recognize. I saw a naked girl the same as I had on my site but there were little things in it that women saw that had a different connotation.
With people that did write their own copy, some of that was clearly a guy thinking with the little head and clear that his motivations were not financial or artistic but to use a camera as a tool to get naked women in front of them and be around these women that probably would have no reason to associate with them otherwise. No shortage of them on " Modeling" websites but few are deluded enough to try and go the whole hog and get paid to indulge their proclivities.

The other thing is understanding what the pictures really mean. Again, I think this is a lot a marketing thing as it is gender ignorance.
A woman doesn't want a sexy picture of herself. She wants a picture that will bring her admiration and romance from a partner. She wants something to offset her fear of getting older to show her kids that Mum wasn't always 45 years old, she was young and hot as well. She wants something to prove to herself and possibly others that she is attractive, that she is what amounts to in women's minds, a woman that can hold her own and is feminine and attractive.

One thing I have done will with is Pregnancy Pictures. Most shooters do them as the warm and fuzzy, maternal, sweet crap. So do I, but only some.
The rest I try to make her look hot and sexy as hell. If you listen to women, even your grandmother, They will talk about how they lost their figure when they became pregnant and what they looked like Before, during and after and it's rarely a story of satisfaction. Usually it's more about how good they looked before, how they didn't like how they looked during and how they never got back what they had after.

Women worry about putting on weight when they are pregnant and getting fat and looking what they consider to be the opposite of attractive. I try to show them as being sexy and hot and sexual creatures instead of it being all about the baby and sweet and Innocent. There are the shots to show Mum and Aunt Matilda and then there are the shots for her and the boyfriend ( or on occasion, husband :0) ) That show off the one thing she is probably happy with, the way her Boobs look, and make her feel good about looking so different to what she is used to and give her some self confidence and esteem that looking good for her isn't over.

The Key to all of this is listen and become aware. Like I said, your grandmother will talk about this so it's a matter of listening and applying what you can learn and pick up on to your and the clients advantage.

Many photographers have 2 strikes against them in a lot of cases especially when dealing with Brides and photographing women in general.
1. They are male and 2, they are photographers.
The first think makes them in a lot of ways ignorant to women's thinking and the 2nd makes them ignorant to anyone else's thinking but their own. Many still think that technicalities are more important that content and don't realize that a client looks at a pic different to a Shooter.

I have done a lot of work with women as brides and in the glam market and I think I'm pretty savy with how to shoot a woman NOW but it's taken a long time to get to this and I still sometimes get caught out.
One thing I'll give myself credit for being excellent at is seeking feedback from clients and other people, particularly women. Every time I shoot someone, I ask, are you having fun? Then I ask OK, there must be something I'm doing you don't like, seems weird or you are not comfortable with, what is it? They will say nothing and I'll say Bullship, that would mean I'm perfect and I know that's not right so what should I do different?

99% of the time it's not what I'm doing rather than their insecurities and feelings. That's valuable knowledge to have to understand how people think and take into account to refine what you do to make them more comfortable.

I shot this girl on Tuesday I found stunning. Loaded up a bunch of the pics on my wifes Ipad and took them to our weekly dinner with friends. Showed them around and particularly got some feedback from the women. Of course the guys think any shot of a young naked chick is awesome so they are useless and unhelpful but the women whom are the girls mothers age are the ones I'm interested in the opinions of. What they would say if it were their daughters in the pictures? If you can do stuff that would get mums approval while still being what the girl wants, I reckon your on a winner. I literally take notes of what people say in offhand comments because I have found that often those things said without thinking are what strike a chord. If you then quote those same words in your marketing materials or tell the clients, It rings a bell and puts you way on side.


How you speak to people, particularly a man to a woman on " Sensitive" things is also very interesting. I can say things to women about personal things and they laugh. I have heard other people say much lesser things and then women comment to others how out of place that was.

This happened in January at my Nices Birthday party. Shes 25 and I know a lot of her friends and have worked with a few. I made a Politically incorrect statement ( several actually) about the girls skimpy summer clothing and displaying their breasts and everyone laughed and poked fun at themselves and made jokes etc. One girl says something so I go over, put my arm around her and proposition her asking her how she feels about fat old balding married men that just happen to be their friends uncle and if shes into that type of guy? She sort of hugs me back and makes some comments about meeting her after the party and everyone is laughing and having a good time.

A bit later my brother in law comes along and says how he likes what all the girls are wearing. Not much else apart from how is everyone, nice day and that's about it before wandering off again. Clearly the comment is taken in a whole different light. He walks off and straight away my nice says something to the others and they make comments as to him being suspect etc. I picked up on it and say hang on, I'm taking about your boobs and propositioning you and your laughing, he compliments what you are wearing and says it's a nice day and you think he's out of place. What gives?

They tell me that it's the intent and thought behind the comment they read into rather than the words themselves that are the issue. It's also pointed out that as an accountant, he's a bit off in saying it but because of what I do, I'm OK.
Righto.....Still trying to work that one out.

It's this kind of perspective that we need at least a minimal understanding of in order to be able to get to what really makes people decide on who to hire and that's emotion. You can have the prettiest pics, do the best job and have the cheapest prices but if your work and personality don't hit the spot with the client, your sunk.

As far as appealing to guys for weddings, I have put a LOT of effort into that.
I used to Have my Harley parked right in the corner of my showing room. You walked down the hallway and the first thing you could see was the front wheel sticking out.
People came in and the first 5 minutes of every interview was about the bike. I told them that if they want it, I'll ride it to the wedding and it can be used as a prop for the pictures. They ask how much, I say I have to get to the weddings somehow so I'll take that instead of the car so there is no extra charge. Bingo!
To the guy, the photography just became irrelevant. He is focused on having this bike there on the day.
It was and still is one of my best promo tools.

Think about it. Weddings are all about the girls. The guy gets dragged to the florist, the cake decorators, bridal fairs and listens to endless talk about bridesmaid dresses and the color of table cloths and napkins and..... He's bored out of his male Mind with all this girly stuff. WTF is in this or of interest to him?

If he was into all this crap, he'd be gay and obviously marrying a girl, most grooms are still straight at that point.
She drags him to another mind numbing experience, to look at more goddam pictures of girls in white dresses where all the conversation is going to be directed to her and he has to sit there pretending to look interested and trying not to fall asleep this time and get in more strife.
He walks in my door and what does he see? A goddam Harley. What is the first thought that goes through his mind? THIS guy Understands! He Knows whats cool. This time he has no trouble staying awake. I offer her a coffee and him a beer and we are mates. The rapport is built, I'm on his side, I'm the guy he wants there on the day because I'm not like all the others pandering to her and boring the ship out of him.

They can go see 20 shooters, who Is THE one vulture after their hard earned that they both remember and has him 110% onside?
ME!!!! :0)

What does he tell everyone the next day at work? They went to see this photographer and he has a Harley parked right in the studio that he takes to the weddings to have pics with. Who do THEY think he should hire and tell him so? Ya!

Now the girl isn't exactly against looking hot on a bike either and the rest of the pics she'll see appeal to her so she's covered and Now I have the guy onside.
Suddenly he takes an interest in the pictures because he thinks sitting on this bike and having it roll up to the wedding is going to give him some cred so who is the one shooter this guy now wants AND he won't just be looking for getting out of this as cheap as possible?
Yep, the guy with the Harley.

Does it really work that well and easily? You bet your backside it does!
They have to pick someone to take the pics, why wouldn't it be the pelican that is onside with the girl AND the guy?

Now the trick I'm still looking for is what do I need to get, have or do to stand out to the BRIDES like that? I'll bet it would help if I was 25 years old and some drop dead gorgeous stud but being at the other end of the scale, I'm not going to do well on that account.

I think the bottom line is be aware and try to educate yourself on things. Ask questions and take note of the answers. Like I say, I still get caught out, frequently, but I know I'm a lot more savvy than a lot of people and even just TRYING to look at it from the other persons POV is a big plus. I'm blunt as a loaf of bread and have no troubles asking people, what do you really want from these pics? Why are you really doing them what are your fears?

People will tell you if you ask and they can see you want to do the best by them.
There is still a lot of reading between the lines but you get better at it and the more you do it right, even when you are very unsure you are, the better you get at it.

I think Psychology would be a great thing for shooters to learn as well as sales and marketing. :0)



May 06, 2015 at 06:19 PM
nolaguy
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · The female point of view


glort wrote:
To get back to what I think was the original intent of the thread before it turned into a women's rights debate....

...I think Psychology would be a great thing for shooters to learn as well as sales and marketing. :0)



About time you showed up.




May 06, 2015 at 06:41 PM
glort
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · The female point of view



Well you certainly got your moneys worth, even by my standards!
:0)



May 06, 2015 at 11:30 PM
heikoM
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · The female point of view


glort wrote:
To get back to what I think was the original intent of the thread before it turned into a women's rights debate....

The case with the pic of the girl my wife picked was Biased.
I didn't like the girl. At all. She loved herself and thought the sun shone out her nether regions and if you want to turn me off, That's one of the best ways to do it.
Yeah, she may have been hot and had a killer body but I'm shallow. If I don't like them as people and personality wise, I'll never find them attractive.

This
...Show more


That was very interesting and helpful,

thank you.


heiko




May 07, 2015 at 07:42 AM
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