heikoM Offline Upload & Sell: Off
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glort wrote:
To get back to what I think was the original intent of the thread before it turned into a women's rights debate....
The case with the pic of the girl my wife picked was Biased.
I didn't like the girl. At all. She loved herself and thought the sun shone out her nether regions and if you want to turn me off, That's one of the best ways to do it.
Yeah, she may have been hot and had a killer body but I'm shallow. If I don't like them as people and personality wise, I'll never find them attractive.
This does come up a bit. I'll shoot a girl, come home, show my wife and tell her how gorgeous she was and I want to use her for promo pics. My wife ( and friends) will look at the pics and say shes nothing special or in fact Unattractive. I'll be saying She was a really nice, intelligent, kind hearted girl and My wife and others will be saying yeah but.... She's not promo material.
My wife says I fall in love with their minds too much and don't see the flaws in their looks. I think I have to fall in love with them for a few hours to be really motivated to push hard and believe in them to get the best out of them.
I'll say this much, I can look back and see the difference in what I have done for the few that did get me offside and I didn't like. :0(
I think a lot of men have trouble and plain don't consider who they are marketing to and what their clients POV is. To me, it's the same old thing I drone on about, Shooters lack of knowledge of Marketing and sales.
To me, it's just like the whole posting pics on Forums things. Yep, put your pretty pics up for other shooters to pat you on the back or nitpick you over. Pointless as far as what your customers think. Sure, get feedback but get it off the people paying you, not the ones who will never use your services.
Same with marketing.
I do well in my Glamour photography not because I am some great shooter, But because I have learned to shoot what appeals to women whom are my clients, not me. If I wanted to appeal to men, I could shoot open leg pics with the cheapest cam available and get a large percent of the male population certainly under 30 yo straight away. Appealing to females takes a bit more intelligence.
Women want to be sexy but they don't want to look cheap and easy. They want some sophistication. Most of all they want to alleviate their fears and concerns. I have had a lot of people try to take over the niche market I have created but they all fail. The first few clowns that came along including one that ripped the copy off my site page for page and then claimed that he only had to change a few words to avoid copyright issues, made me mad at first. Their attempts to rip off what I was doing was so blatant. I soon realized however that they would get no where when I showed their sites to female friends and clients and saw how repulsed they were by the pics shown.
I'll admit, I didn't pick up on a lot of it but to the women, the pics were sleazy and off putting for elements I couldn't recognize. I saw a naked girl the same as I had on my site but there were little things in it that women saw that had a different connotation.
With people that did write their own copy, some of that was clearly a guy thinking with the little head and clear that his motivations were not financial or artistic but to use a camera as a tool to get naked women in front of them and be around these women that probably would have no reason to associate with them otherwise. No shortage of them on " Modeling" websites but few are deluded enough to try and go the whole hog and get paid to indulge their proclivities.
The other thing is understanding what the pictures really mean. Again, I think this is a lot a marketing thing as it is gender ignorance.
A woman doesn't want a sexy picture of herself. She wants a picture that will bring her admiration and romance from a partner. She wants something to offset her fear of getting older to show her kids that Mum wasn't always 45 years old, she was young and hot as well. She wants something to prove to herself and possibly others that she is attractive, that she is what amounts to in women's minds, a woman that can hold her own and is feminine and attractive.
One thing I have done will with is Pregnancy Pictures. Most shooters do them as the warm and fuzzy, maternal, sweet crap. So do I, but only some.
The rest I try to make her look hot and sexy as hell. If you listen to women, even your grandmother, They will talk about how they lost their figure when they became pregnant and what they looked like Before, during and after and it's rarely a story of satisfaction. Usually it's more about how good they looked before, how they didn't like how they looked during and how they never got back what they had after.
Women worry about putting on weight when they are pregnant and getting fat and looking what they consider to be the opposite of attractive. I try to show them as being sexy and hot and sexual creatures instead of it being all about the baby and sweet and Innocent. There are the shots to show Mum and Aunt Matilda and then there are the shots for her and the boyfriend ( or on occasion, husband :0) ) That show off the one thing she is probably happy with, the way her Boobs look, and make her feel good about looking so different to what she is used to and give her some self confidence and esteem that looking good for her isn't over.
The Key to all of this is listen and become aware. Like I said, your grandmother will talk about this so it's a matter of listening and applying what you can learn and pick up on to your and the clients advantage.
Many photographers have 2 strikes against them in a lot of cases especially when dealing with Brides and photographing women in general.
1. They are male and 2, they are photographers.
The first think makes them in a lot of ways ignorant to women's thinking and the 2nd makes them ignorant to anyone else's thinking but their own. Many still think that technicalities are more important that content and don't realize that a client looks at a pic different to a Shooter.
I have done a lot of work with women as brides and in the glam market and I think I'm pretty savy with how to shoot a woman NOW but it's taken a long time to get to this and I still sometimes get caught out.
One thing I'll give myself credit for being excellent at is seeking feedback from clients and other people, particularly women. Every time I shoot someone, I ask, are you having fun? Then I ask OK, there must be something I'm doing you don't like, seems weird or you are not comfortable with, what is it? They will say nothing and I'll say Bullship, that would mean I'm perfect and I know that's not right so what should I do different?
99% of the time it's not what I'm doing rather than their insecurities and feelings. That's valuable knowledge to have to understand how people think and take into account to refine what you do to make them more comfortable.
I shot this girl on Tuesday I found stunning. Loaded up a bunch of the pics on my wifes Ipad and took them to our weekly dinner with friends. Showed them around and particularly got some feedback from the women. Of course the guys think any shot of a young naked chick is awesome so they are useless and unhelpful but the women whom are the girls mothers age are the ones I'm interested in the opinions of. What they would say if it were their daughters in the pictures? If you can do stuff that would get mums approval while still being what the girl wants, I reckon your on a winner. I literally take notes of what people say in offhand comments because I have found that often those things said without thinking are what strike a chord. If you then quote those same words in your marketing materials or tell the clients, It rings a bell and puts you way on side.
How you speak to people, particularly a man to a woman on " Sensitive" things is also very interesting. I can say things to women about personal things and they laugh. I have heard other people say much lesser things and then women comment to others how out of place that was.
This happened in January at my Nices Birthday party. Shes 25 and I know a lot of her friends and have worked with a few. I made a Politically incorrect statement ( several actually) about the girls skimpy summer clothing and displaying their breasts and everyone laughed and poked fun at themselves and made jokes etc. One girl says something so I go over, put my arm around her and proposition her asking her how she feels about fat old balding married men that just happen to be their friends uncle and if shes into that type of guy? She sort of hugs me back and makes some comments about meeting her after the party and everyone is laughing and having a good time.
A bit later my brother in law comes along and says how he likes what all the girls are wearing. Not much else apart from how is everyone, nice day and that's about it before wandering off again. Clearly the comment is taken in a whole different light. He walks off and straight away my nice says something to the others and they make comments as to him being suspect etc. I picked up on it and say hang on, I'm taking about your boobs and propositioning you and your laughing, he compliments what you are wearing and says it's a nice day and you think he's out of place. What gives?
They tell me that it's the intent and thought behind the comment they read into rather than the words themselves that are the issue. It's also pointed out that as an accountant, he's a bit off in saying it but because of what I do, I'm OK.
Righto.....Still trying to work that one out.
It's this kind of perspective that we need at least a minimal understanding of in order to be able to get to what really makes people decide on who to hire and that's emotion. You can have the prettiest pics, do the best job and have the cheapest prices but if your work and personality don't hit the spot with the client, your sunk.
As far as appealing to guys for weddings, I have put a LOT of effort into that.
I used to Have my Harley parked right in the corner of my showing room. You walked down the hallway and the first thing you could see was the front wheel sticking out.
People came in and the first 5 minutes of every interview was about the bike. I told them that if they want it, I'll ride it to the wedding and it can be used as a prop for the pictures. They ask how much, I say I have to get to the weddings somehow so I'll take that instead of the car so there is no extra charge. Bingo!
To the guy, the photography just became irrelevant. He is focused on having this bike there on the day.
It was and still is one of my best promo tools.
Think about it. Weddings are all about the girls. The guy gets dragged to the florist, the cake decorators, bridal fairs and listens to endless talk about bridesmaid dresses and the color of table cloths and napkins and..... He's bored out of his male Mind with all this girly stuff. WTF is in this or of interest to him?
If he was into all this crap, he'd be gay and obviously marrying a girl, most grooms are still straight at that point.
She drags him to another mind numbing experience, to look at more goddam pictures of girls in white dresses where all the conversation is going to be directed to her and he has to sit there pretending to look interested and trying not to fall asleep this time and get in more strife.
He walks in my door and what does he see? A goddam Harley. What is the first thought that goes through his mind? THIS guy Understands! He Knows whats cool. This time he has no trouble staying awake. I offer her a coffee and him a beer and we are mates. The rapport is built, I'm on his side, I'm the guy he wants there on the day because I'm not like all the others pandering to her and boring the ship out of him.
They can go see 20 shooters, who Is THE one vulture after their hard earned that they both remember and has him 110% onside?
ME!!!! :0)
What does he tell everyone the next day at work? They went to see this photographer and he has a Harley parked right in the studio that he takes to the weddings to have pics with. Who do THEY think he should hire and tell him so? Ya!
Now the girl isn't exactly against looking hot on a bike either and the rest of the pics she'll see appeal to her so she's covered and Now I have the guy onside.
Suddenly he takes an interest in the pictures because he thinks sitting on this bike and having it roll up to the wedding is going to give him some cred so who is the one shooter this guy now wants AND he won't just be looking for getting out of this as cheap as possible?
Yep, the guy with the Harley.
Does it really work that well and easily? You bet your backside it does!
They have to pick someone to take the pics, why wouldn't it be the pelican that is onside with the girl AND the guy?
Now the trick I'm still looking for is what do I need to get, have or do to stand out to the BRIDES like that? I'll bet it would help if I was 25 years old and some drop dead gorgeous stud but being at the other end of the scale, I'm not going to do well on that account.
I think the bottom line is be aware and try to educate yourself on things. Ask questions and take note of the answers. Like I say, I still get caught out, frequently, but I know I'm a lot more savvy than a lot of people and even just TRYING to look at it from the other persons POV is a big plus. I'm blunt as a loaf of bread and have no troubles asking people, what do you really want from these pics? Why are you really doing them what are your fears?
People will tell you if you ask and they can see you want to do the best by them.
There is still a lot of reading between the lines but you get better at it and the more you do it right, even when you are very unsure you are, the better you get at it.
I think Psychology would be a great thing for shooters to learn as well as sales and marketing. :0)...Show more →
That was very interesting and helpful,
thank you.
heiko
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