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Archive 2015 · Any Surface Pro users out there?

  
 
Ian.Dobinson
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


I guess it all depends on what your uses are .

I see the Companion as a Graphics Tablet thats can do a bit of computing while the Surface Pro (or other 2 in 1 choices) is a computer that you can do a bit of photoshop on .


can I ask any SP3 users out there . how do you find it as a laptop that you actually use on your LAP ?

My SP1 is almost unusable on my lap and from what I've seen the SP2 isn't much better even with the extra stand position



May 09, 2015 at 01:31 AM
Arka
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


Ian.Dobinson wrote:
I guess it all depends on what your uses are .

I see the Companion as a Graphics Tablet thats can do a bit of computing while the Surface Pro (or other 2 in 1 choices) is a computer that you can do a bit of photoshop on .


There isn't much you can do on Surface that you can't do on a Companion (if you get an external keyboard for it), though there are plenty of things you can do on a Companion that you could never do on Surface (like drive a 4K external display, draw/paint without a keyboard, or work with more than 8GB of RAM). That said, the Companion costs more, weighs more, and is overall much larger and louder (the fan noise sometimes makes me think there is a wind turbine living in there). The Surface is a pretty nice product (and Microsoft always has some sort of promotional on it, which helps with the pricing). Neither has been a primary machine for me; that role goes to a MacBook Pro 15", though the Companion has definitely become my go-to system for making art and processing photos, more so than the Surface ever did I'm afraid.



May 09, 2015 at 06:00 AM
Arka
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


Mr Mouse wrote:
Your use of Photoshop must be quite different then mine. I use shortcut all the time I need a keyboard or touchkey. Your also a faster learner then me. I would never feel using a Surfacr Pro 3 in a Microsoft store at lunch time extensive use. I would need to process some of my PSD assets. Use some of the programs I scripted, plugins I created and use some of my actions. I'm just a retoucher that edits images and make composite. Draw I do not do. I do more masking tilt is not something important to me.
...Show more

MS store employees will let you install just about anything onto their demo machines, and unlike the Apple store on the other side of the mall, there isn't much foot traffic in the MS store, so you can really take your time and work on your files. I probably put a good 2-3h of test time into assessing the adequacy of the SP3 for my needs, mostly after I got off work in the evening. I did so with an eye towards ergonomics, keyboard independence, and determining how the SP3 improved upon the SP2 (which it clearly does in many ways).

What I found is that it is nearly impossible to use the Surface without some sort of keyboard. Using touch with pen input also drives me nuts, as I nearly always end up accidentally panning my image off the screen. The ability to turn touch features on and off with a single hotkey is now vital to my workflow, and it's something that is very easy to implement on the Companion 2.

Desktop Applications need a keyboards. An onscreen keyboard is OK to adding text layers but you don't want to need to popup an on screen keyboard to use a shortcut for its no longer short fast access.

I would never suggest anyone use an onscreen keyboard as a primary input device. But you can pick up a Logitech K810 backlit keyboard for a Surface Pro or Cintiq companion for less than the price of the SP3 type cover.

I'm sure many feel the CC2 is an excelent device it just not for everyone. I do not think a SP3 or CC2 would be anyone main machine. Its their mobile machine. Its fine to choose a CC2 if that machine is better for you needs.

Few things will satisfy everyone. But if imaging is your principal use, I think the Companion is a better (albeit heavier and more costly) choice than the Surface.



May 09, 2015 at 06:08 AM
kdphotography
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


Mr Mouse wrote:
....

I also use my Surface Pro 3 as a third high ppi display on my windows workstation at times. Done using Spacedesk over my local network. My Workstation is wired to the network where the Surface pro 3 connection is wireless. ...


Very cool tip. More stuff to snoop out, but I'll probably wait to upgrade from the SP2 to the Surface Pro 4.

ken



May 09, 2015 at 10:08 AM
Mr Mouse
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


I can not use Photoshop on my dual xeon Workstation with a Wacom Intuos Pro without a keyboard. The express keys help but I still use my keybpoard shortcuts. Keyboards are a standard item on Workstations. The Surface Pro 3 and Wacom Cintioq Companion 2 do not come witha a keyboard as a standatrd item. Both have keyboard options. To use Photoshop personally I need a keyboard. I find that Touchkey can be used as an alternitiove to a keyboardfor the is no p[ronlem entering text usinf Microshof on screen keyboard using Photoshop. I would Use Touchkey on either the Surfaced Pro 3 or Cintiq Compoanion 2 where using a blutooth or attached keyboprd is inconvient.

I chose the Surface Pro 3 for it was cheaper by $500, Quite a bit smaler and half the weight as the CC2. The CC2 has a better Pen, 2048n levels, suppoprts tilt and has express keys going for it. If the Surface Pro 4 come is a 14"version withe the samer pixels 2160x1440 at a lower resolution than the SP3 I may opt for it. For my 74 year old eyes would be less stressed and it will still be smaler and lighter than the companion.

Many should an will choose the Companion for I'm sure it would be better for Artiest than a Surface...



May 09, 2015 at 09:18 PM
flash
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


Ian.Dobinson wrote:
I guess it all depends on what your uses are .

I see the Companion as a Graphics Tablet thats can do a bit of computing while the Surface Pro (or other 2 in 1 choices) is a computer that you can do a bit of photoshop on .

can I ask any SP3 users out there . how do you find it as a laptop that you actually use on your LAP ?

My SP1 is almost unusable on my lap and from what I've seen the SP2 isn't much better even with the extra stand position


The SP3 stand is infinitely adjustable, unlike the older ones. So it's fine on your lap. With or without a keyboard attached. It "feels" different but I've yet to have that translate into stability issues. I've used mine on my lap and on plane tables etc with no problems.

Gordon



May 10, 2015 at 02:54 PM
Alan321
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


I use a Surface Pro 3.

The 12 inch screen is probably as small as I would want to go but the 216ppi is wonderful for displaying photos when you get the scaling parameters correct. There are settings to tweak in Windows and in software (Lr, Firefox, etc.) - and they all work simultaneously so that adjusting one can upset another.

A 2-core cpu is a limitation but then it is 2 generations newer than the 4-core one in my MBP, so I get to use more GHz more easily and more often. That makes some Lr tasks faster than on the MBP despite having only half of the cores and a slower base cpu speed. e.g. building image previews in Lr.

The SP3 can drive a 4k screen that my MBP cannot, so that'll be a plus when I finish setting up my s/w and data on the SP3. [I was basically converting from Mac to Windows for this exercise and it has taken me quite a while]

The SP3 suits my needs, but they included portability without a hard keyboard and screen forming an open clamshell, and being able to take hand-written notes and diagrams. These were very high priorities that precluded most alternatives. Plus I wanted / needed to run Windows-specific software.

The touch interface is mostly very good but I've experienced a few gotchas that may be windows 8.1 or may be hardware and/or driver related. Normally I use the type cover keyboard but sometimes I am forced to touch the screen to regain control. Also, I find the track pad and the screen can be a bit too sensitive to movement while I am lifting my finger off them. Maybe I just need less flexible pads on my fingers, but I don't have the problem on my Samsung and so I think it is something that MS will be able to fix when they buy the right programmer.

Anyone could reasonably desire more speed, more RAM, more storage, an anti-glare screen, and so on, but within those obvious limitations that would be aware of before buying an SP3 my biggest gripe is that unlike a Samsung Note device, the SP3 does not have a setting that ignores my hand when I am writing with the pen.

I have used the built-in graphics acceleration of the 4th gen i7 cpu with Lr 6 but I expect that a separate graphics card might be a lot better in a more powerful computer. However, then I'd probably lose portability and battery life.

It is certainly not an all-day computer unless you have external power, but you can get a few hours out of it. I find those hours go by very quickly when I am working on Lr.

With regard to the screen, it has near enough full sRGB coverage and great contrast. The high ppi is lovely to look at but I really would prefer a less glossy screen. With my normal glasses it seems a bit small but with my reading glasses on the whole thing is magnified to the equivalent of a bigger monitor and yet it still looks great for photo work and text work. The SP3 has a mini display port for an external screen and that suits me just fine. For other screen connectors you would need an optional adapter.

Some software spits the dummy with a complaint about 720 pixel screen height and I have not been able to determine why it isn't seeing the 1440 pixel screen height. There might be another setting hidden away in the Registry that I need to tweak.


USB 3 is ok but not a patch on thunderbolt on a Mac when it comes to practical file transfer speed - especially obvious for SSD to SSD transfers. I think the file system is mostly to blame for the slower performance (NTFS vs HFS+).

Having only a single USB port is a serious limitation but when I travel I take the optional dock with me to provide more ports while I'm on ac power. That dock connects via a special port that seems to have much greater performance than a usb 3 port, and so I guess that it taps into the PCI interface like thunderbolt does - but I'm not certain.

The 512GB SSD is speedy but also very expensive compared to the 256GB option. Even so, I'm glad that I've got it because 256GB would not be enough for my needs when taking in cardfulls of 36Mpx raw files for Lr to play with. I also keep bundles of pdf files in it for portable reference, as well as smart previews and previews of my main Lr library.

I will soon have a Lexar P20 high-performance 128GB USB 3 thumb drive and there is also a slot tucked away underneath for a much slower micro SD card, so there are options for external storage that aren't too big physically but which can be used in other devices for transferring files in bulk.

In summary, while the SP3 is not a cheap option, if you want the functionality of a tablet and much of the usefulness of a PC in a single, compact, portable and light device with excellent sRGB screen performance, then you could do a lot worse than have an SP3. It has become my go-to computer until I need the more substantial storage speed and capacity that I can get from my desk-based MacBook Pro.

- Alan



May 12, 2015 at 11:25 AM
atwl77
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


Alan321 wrote:
Anyone could reasonably desire more speed, more RAM, more storage, an anti-glare screen, and so on, but within those obvious limitations that would be aware of before buying an SP3 my biggest gripe is that unlike a Samsung Note device, the SP3 does not have a setting that ignores my hand when I am writing with the pen.


Curious about this comment, because my impression is that the N-Trig-based pen should turn off touch when the screen detects proximity.

My experience with Lenovo's Wacom-based devices is that even with similar proximity-based tech, the distance is often too close so sometimes, based on my own handwriting habits, I may accidentally get a touch in before it detects the pen.

Is your issue the same (deactivation too close)? Or is it simply that you want the option to disable touch completely?



May 13, 2015 at 09:30 PM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


my understanding is the SP3 DOES have palm rejection . but I've also seen it mentioned in a few reviews how it doesn't reject the palm if the pen isn't touching or very near the screen . sort of if your resting your palm on screen but doing brush strokes etc .
Maybe its something that effects sketching / painting more than image retouching .

anyway I did find a workaround online that could be good but also could be a pain if you like to go between pen and touch based usage .
found this on Reddit.com surface comments .


"For those of you who have problems with the palm rejection when using the pen like I do (I always set my hand on the screen too early, before the tip is close enough and get marks), there's a work around i learned back from my days of using an old HP TouchSmart notebook with a stylus.
Go into device manager and then Human Interface Devices. Inside that tree there will be a long list of devices. One of them is something like "HID Compliant Touch Screen", not sure on the exact wording as I'm not on my Surface at the moment. Click on that and then click "disable". this will turn off the touch sensor for the screen, allowing you to rest your and on it all you want, but still able to use the pen.
When you are done drawing, just re-enable to the touch screen and everything is back to normal. I keep a shortcut to device manager on my desktop just for this."



May 14, 2015 at 01:22 AM
Alan321
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


Ian, that looks interesting. I'd have thought that turning off touch would disable the pen too. I'll give it a go.


[update] It works a treat. Still leaves the windows button beside the screen active, but that is generally ok (so far) when I'm working in pen-only mode. If that button gets in the way then I can turn the computer 180 degrees to shift it - much easier for me that working left-handed

Adding a couple of icons to the desktop or taskbar to automate the disabling and enabling of the "HID compliant touch-screen" device would make it even more convenient to use this feature.

-----

I'm really getting to like the touch-screen interface in Windows so long as it is optional and so long as I'm using a tablet or the SP3 in tablet mode. It would be a real pain in the neck (and arms and shoulders) with a desktop screen.

- Alan

Edited on May 14, 2015 at 03:46 AM · View previous versions



May 14, 2015 at 03:04 AM
Alan321
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


Alan321 wrote:
Anyone could reasonably desire more speed, more RAM, more storage, an anti-glare screen, and so on, but within those obvious limitations that would be aware of before buying an SP3 my biggest gripe is that unlike a Samsung Note device, the SP3 does not have a setting that ignores my hand when I am writing with the pen.

atwl77 wrote:
Curious about this comment, because my impression is that the N-Trig-based pen should turn off touch when the screen detects proximity.

My experience with Lenovo's Wacom-based devices is that even with similar proximity-based tech, the distance is often too close so sometimes, based on my own handwriting habits, I may accidentally get a touch in before it detects the pen.

Is your issue the same (deactivation too close)? Or is it simply that you want the option to disable touch completely?


When I'm scribbling something into Windows Journal or OneNote I often get lots of extra dots where it has seen my hand but not my pen. The problem is not just related to how close the pen is to the screen but also to how I use the pen. Specifically, when I'm using my pen I also use it to select touch-buttons in menus and toolbars that I'd otherwise use my finger to select (although not so much for the on-screen keyboards, when I revert to finger typing). In moving the pen to those buttons I may well be lifting it too high off the screen. I may also may or may not be shifting my hand or lifting it off the screen at the same time.

Another category of problem is that the soft Windows button is still recognised unless I specifically cancel it. Cancelling it, however, makes it unavailable for when I do want it. Sometimes the equivalent taskbar button is not visible, such as when I'm using an on-screen keyboard. I haven't yet found out how to display the Windows taskbar as well as an on-screen keyboard.

- Alan



May 14, 2015 at 03:28 AM
atwl77
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


Thanks Alan.

It looks like it's not going to be that much different from the Wacom-based digitizers after all.



May 14, 2015 at 05:00 AM
Arka
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


The palm rejection issues are maddening on all digitizers it seems. This is something that drove me nuts on the SP2, and still drives me nuts on the Wacom Cintiq Companion. What usually happens is I will flip the pen around to use the eraser tip with my palm resting on the display, and my work image will immediately pan off the screen in response to my palm touch. The only way I get around it is turning touch off when working with the pen, which the Cintiq Companion enables easily enough through hot-key assignment.


May 16, 2015 at 04:05 AM
Alan321
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


For general use withe other than photo editing software, it would be really handy to have a SHIFT or CTRL button on the Surface Pro pen. It can be messy to select multiple files in a list without a keyboard, unless the software happens to offer check boxes as MS File Explorer does.



Jun 16, 2015 at 04:24 AM
Alan321
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Any Surface Pro users out there?


An update...
When doing simple Lr edits with sliders on an image that has already had some complex adjustment brush edits edits, it becomes obvious that the SP3 needs more CPU and/or GPU grunt. However, in the role of initial/simple editing it works reasonably well.

Also, when I need to use the on-screen keyboard i general prefer to fix it so that the application does not exist behind the keyboard - only above it. The button near the the X at the top right of the keyboard toggles this. However, using this mode clobbers the Windows tool bar at the bottom of the screen. So far the easiest fix has been to shift the Windows toolbar to the top of the screen permanently. it takes a little getting used to.

- Alan



Jun 27, 2015 at 12:46 PM
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