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Archive 2015 · Color Management

  
 
Rick Bolin
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Color Management


Can anyone point me to a good resource that explains color management in an easy to understand way?

One of the issues I'm having a problem understanding is that there are supposed to be better color spaces for printing than sRGB, but if your monitor is limited to a sRGB gamut, how does that allow you to edit for printing?



Apr 29, 2015 at 02:16 PM
John Wheeler
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Color Management


Hi Rick
Try this link for starters: http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-management1.htm

Also in regards to color spaces. Many are close to sRGB yet there are wide gamut monitors closer to Adobe RGB. You have good questions. I believe the bottom line is that there is not better or worse color gamuts --- just tradeoffs. The table below gives my opinion on color space tradeoffs to consider. Hope this helps some:

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-5K8H6q6/0/L/i-5K8H6q6-L.jpg



Apr 29, 2015 at 02:26 PM
Ziffl3
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Color Management


What John provide is a good start.

Additional information: All 3 main web browser support jpg exported with Adobe98. Meaning, they can handle and properly display the adobe98 gamut.

Down side.... not everybody has monitor that can fully display the wide gamet.
If you have mobile (cell phone/tablets) aspect of business, than they all work in sRGB only.

Not every album manufacture, if this is of interest, can print with the adobe98 gamut.

Yes, Adobe98 is a wider gamut and will have more color available so less banding of color - think blue sky and the transition from dark to light blues.

To truely handle the entire work flow, one would have to have a video card and monitor that support true 10 bit color depth. Then find a printing house that can print in the adobe98 gamut.

Hope this helps.

-Mark



Apr 29, 2015 at 07:33 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Color Management


On the use of ProPhotoRGB as a working space:


http://schewephoto.com/sRGB-VS-PPRGB/
http://www.outbackphoto.com/color_management/cm_06/essay.html
http://www.naturephotographers.net/articles1203/mh1203-1.html
http://luminous-landscape.com/understanding-prophoto-rgb/
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/colour_management/colour_space_choice.html

Brian A



Apr 29, 2015 at 07:53 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Color Management


All of the above are great resources. Plus look here also :http://www.johnpaulcaponigro.com/


May 01, 2015 at 10:22 AM
Rick Bolin
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Color Management


Thanks, everyone, this was very helpful. I may have some follow-on questions once I digest all of this.


Jun 18, 2015 at 05:12 PM
Rick Bolin
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Color Management


After a couple hours of reading, I've set my Lightroom and Photoshop working space to ProPhoto RGB, which seems to be the consensus for editing work, even though my monitor is only capable of sRGB. From what I gather, these settings, combined with Perceptual Intent, will provide better control of color clipping and the effects may be apparent even after sRGb conversion.

For images I want to put on the web, I'm looking for an easy way to convert to a sRGB jpeg from Photoshop and dump the file into the original folder. The closest thing I've found is "Export/Save for Web (legacy)", but it forces you to navigate to the target folder. Does anyone know way to set the original folder as the default when exporting or saving a sRGB jpeg?

One other question ... I'm assuming RAW files have no color space assigned until they are imported into ACR or Lightroom. Is that correct? The links provided were a little hazy on that.



Jun 18, 2015 at 11:30 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Color Management


Rick Bolin wrote:
After a couple hours of reading, I've set my Lightroom and Photoshop working space to ProPhoto RGB, which seems to be the consensus for editing work, even though my monitor is only capable of sRGB. From what I gather, these settings, combined with Perceptual Intent, will provide better control of color clipping and the effects may be apparent even after sRGb conversion.


Version 4 ICC profiles can contain enough information for a color space to color space conversion using a perceptual rendering intent, but I know of no current apps that take advantage of that. There may be exceptions, but generally any conversion from ProPhotoRGB to sRGB will be done colormetrically. You can check the Perceptual box all you like, but it ain't gonna happen.

Version 2 ICC profiles for working color spaces do not contain the perceptual, colorimetric, or saturation lookup tables. They are simple matrix based profiles, with RGB coordinates, white point, and gamma. Without the two perceptual tables, input to PCS (profile connection space) and PCS to output space, there is no way any color management system can use a perceptual rendering.

Rick Bolin wrote:
For images I want to put on the web, I'm looking for an easy way to convert to a sRGB jpeg from Photoshop and dump the file into the original folder. The closest thing I've found is "Export/Save for Web (legacy)", but it forces you to navigate to the target folder. Does anyone know way to set the original folder as the default when exporting or saving a sRGB jpeg?


I don't know about CC, but CS6 and previous versions, simply Convert (Edit, Convert to Profile) to sRGB, and do a Save As, and that should automatically take you to the same folder as the original (at least running under Win).

Rick Bolin wrote:
One other question ... I'm assuming RAW files have no color space assigned until they are imported into ACR or Lightroom. Is that correct?

Yes

Rick Bolin wrote:
The links provided were a little hazy on that.


Well, that would be two other questions, but ...

https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/help/color-management.html

Brian A




Jun 19, 2015 at 12:26 AM
JPuckettPhoto
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Color Management


For me, my camera had always been set to sRGB because that's what it was defaulted to and I didn't know any better to even consider changing it. Once I learned about color spaces, I began to research it. I have decided to stick with sRGB throughout my workflow because of the following reasons:

- I have no interest in paying the prices for anything more than 100% sRGB monitor, therefore I will not even be able to see the difference. Even if I would buy a more expensive monitor, I'm not skilled enough to notice the difference.
- My preferred printer only accepts sRGB and I have no interest in changing to a more expensive printer.
- Any examples I've seen on the internet that try to show me the difference between sRGB and Adobe RGB/ProPhoto have to use blown-up examples so I can actually see what's happening. If I have to push past reality to make me understand, then I don't care.

I should actually probably just say that I'm a hobbyist/amateur photographer and that would be good enough.



Jun 21, 2015 at 07:13 PM
Aaron D
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Color Management


Correct....setting a colorspace on the camera has no effect on the outputted RAW. However....this setting can have an effect on the histogram during preview in the cam body, as there is a jpeg embedded in the RAW. Because of this, I use aRGB on the camera.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt LR use a variation of ProphotoRGB, called Melissa, for editing? Or has this changed?

I choose to use sRGB for jpg exports. But I fear my laptop may be outputting incorrectly (I meed to calibrate this week). This CM thing always confuses the hell out of me and makes me second guess my settings. I ponder if I should continue embeding the sRGB profile in jpgs.



Jun 21, 2015 at 09:37 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Color Management


Aaron D wrote:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt LR use a variation of ProphotoRGB, called Melissa, for editing? Or has this changed?


Close.

As an editing space, Lightroom uses ProPhotoRGB but with a linear gamma instead of a gamma of 1.8. MelissaRGB is ProPhotoRGB but with an sRGB gamma curve, which is approximately 2.2, but is linear for low values. Although many use an approximation of MelissaRGB with a simple 2.2 gamma.

In short, no, not Melissa.

Brian A




Jun 21, 2015 at 10:11 PM
boingyman
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Color Management


Although the basics of color management is important don't get too caught up with the advanced aspects of color space if it doesn't really affect your work. For some people it's crucial, but for the majority it's overkill. On the otherhand I think it is important to understand and there may be a time where it is important to your work. Ask yourself how it affects for final product?


Jun 22, 2015 at 11:42 AM
Rick Bolin
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Color Management


boingyman wrote:
Although the basics of color management is important don't get too caught up with the advanced aspects of color space if it doesn't really affect your work. For some people it's crucial, but for the majority it's overkill. On the otherhand I think it is important to understand and there may be a time where it is important to your work. Ask yourself how it affects for final product?


I think Aaron D's post above about aRGB affecting the histogram may be significant for RAW shooters like me. If that can prevent color clipping, that's a good thing. Having to convert your images to sRBG for the web is a pain if most of the work you do is for online only, but I occasionally want print-worthy images, so I think I'm going to go with aRGB in the camera and ProPhotoRGB for editing, and put up with the extra step of sRGB conversion for the web. Does that make sense?



Jun 22, 2015 at 07:53 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Color Management


The Histogram won't tell you anything really about color clipping, but it can tell you a lot about tonal clipping, and that's where it comes in handy. The only way it's useful is to tell you if you've clipped your highlights or shadows and then you have the option of adjusting your exposure to compensate. Your tonal range is going to be the same regardless of color space. The most important thing is to learn to correlate in your mind how the histogram on the back of your camera relates to how you process your raw files - and to know that generally, you've got headroom on either end in the raw file from what you see on your LCD.


Jun 22, 2015 at 09:08 PM
Aaron D
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Color Management


Rick Bolin wrote:
I think Aaron D's post above about aRGB affecting the histogram may be significant for RAW shooters like me. If that can prevent color clipping, that's a good thing. Having to convert your images to sRBG for the web is a pain if most of the work you do is for online only, but I occasionally want print-worthy images, so I think I'm going to go with aRGB in the camera and ProPhotoRGB for editing, and put up with the extra step of sRGB conversion for the web. Does that make sense?


For simplicity, I try and use srgb for everything. Mainly because I don't have a wide gamut monitor, and dont have 10-bit support for editing. It's very rare I print. However, since a CR2 file is generally smaller than a 16-bit Tiff, I save the original (in case I want to print at a later time, as LR usually keeps record of the edits you've made). I export the edited version in srgb jpg. The combined size of the original RAW, and the exported jpg, is usually equal to / less than a single 16-bit tiff version. LR uses the above color space mentioned for editing. If I recall, to get an idea of what it would look like in a different color space, you have to soft proof, which I'm still not totally familiar with.



Jun 22, 2015 at 09:51 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Color Management


Rick Bolin wrote:
.... Having to convert your images to sRBG for the web is a pain if most of the work you do is for online only, but I occasionally want print-worthy images, so I think I'm going to go with aRGB in the camera and ProPhotoRGB for editing, and put up with the extra step of sRGB conversion for the web. Does that make sense?


I don't see how converting to sRGB can be seen as a pain. Even though you are working in ProPhotoRGB, your image is still raw. As a raw 'image' it still isn't in any color space, it is still just raw data - you have to put it into some space to view it, print it, or whatever.

At some point you have to form an image using a recognizable file format and give it a color space to exist in. It is no more of a pain to create an image file with ProPhotoRGB or AdobeRGB.

Brian A




Jun 22, 2015 at 11:50 PM





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