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Archive 2015 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras

  
 
billsamuels
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


I've been looking at a couple of articles in camera magazines, and it looks like some of the feature photographers had removed their low-pass filters from their Canon cameras, and in one case, from all of their Canon cameras. This even included their 5DMII and 1D.

I was looking at an older topic about this subject and I didn't get a sense on whether people really approved or disapproved this being done here at FM, or whether it's been done by FM users. So I guess I'll ask again whether anyone has done this recently and whether it was a good thing or bad thing, especially since a lot of people are on the waiting list for the new 5DS-R, not to mention that some of the non Canon brand-name cameras already don't include a low-pass filter, such as the medium-frame cameras (Mamiya, Hasselblad, etc), and I believe some of the newer full-frame cameras now are not using it such as Olympus and Sony.

So if the 5DS-R works out and it's pretty easy to get along without the low-pass filter, I was wondering what your thoughts are about having the filter physically removed in the rest of my Canon cameras, including my 6D and Rebels, which are APS-C (SL1 for IR and one for regular photography)?

Thanks
Bill



Apr 29, 2015 at 02:18 AM
Dpedraza
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


Doesn't bother me. I owned a D800E which has a modified olpf. Obviously you know that removing the AA you have a higher chance of moire but the trade off is you get sharper images. It would be more of a personal choice. I think some people on here would trade off additional sharpness for a chance of more moire.

Life Pixel will remove your AA filter.
http://www.lifepixel.com/shop/anti-aliasing-filter-removal/canon-dslr-anti-aliasing-filter-removal



Apr 29, 2015 at 07:07 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


I had the AA filter removed in one of my two 5D MkII camera bodies when converting it with a 715 nm cutoff filter for infrared. I saw a big benefit from not having the AA filter - I see an improvement in resolution/sharpness even in IR light. Also using the A7R camera which does not have an AA filter either. I never had an issue with moire effects on both cameras.


Apr 29, 2015 at 07:09 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


I don't know the answer to your question but I find it interesting that when I look at dxomark resolution tests, the canon 5dIII gets pretty close to its maximum resolution (22 effective mpx) with existing lens without the aa filter removed. Whereas the d800 typically fails to achieve more than about the same resolution (22 effective mpx) with the aa no removed. Whereas the d800e and d810 do achieve much higher resolution than 22effective mpx with good lens.

This suggests to me that the resolution benefits you will see will be not great on the canon lens [ or lower mpx cameras ?].

In theory you should need less sharpening, but based on DXO, my conclusion was that removal was marginal except for infared and astrophotography (reduce red filtering). But my conclusion were just based on inferences from DXOmark.

I would skip this pursuit and just buy the 5dsr.



Apr 29, 2015 at 07:53 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


OP: For what reason related to your own photography would you do this?


Apr 29, 2015 at 07:58 AM
Monito
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


The 5D series have weak AA filters. I have gotten moiré with the 5D classic, that was obvious, and I'm sure if I looked there would be some on the 5D2. I'd prefer them to be a little stronger, but I don't fret about them being as weak as they are.

I've pre-ordered the 5DS (with AA) but not the S R (AA cancelled).



Apr 29, 2015 at 08:15 AM
darbo
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


Yes I agree the 5D series has a weak AA filter. I use an a7R and although the sheer greater resolution of the a7R resolves more detail, I don't see any softness in my 5D III files by comparison.

I have experienced moire in images I have captured from all the cameras I have used - whether they have an AA filter or not. One of the worst cases was from a Sony a7 capture (has an AA filter). So, regarding 5DS vs 5DS R I am uncertain which to choose (if I elect to purchase either). On the one hand I have not noticed any increase of moire incidents with my a7R captures (has no AA filter) compared to my other cameras with AA filters. That alleviates my concern about it in the 5DS R. But, on the other hand, do I really want to spend an extra $200 for a mere nominal gain in detail acutance?



Apr 29, 2015 at 08:49 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


darbo wrote:
I have experienced moire in images I have captured from all the cameras I have used - whether they have an AA filter or not.


This mirrors my experience. I have one camera that doesn't have an AA filter and while I do get somewhat sharper images (requiring more conservative sharpening in post) I have not encountered moire problems with it — even though I usually shoot it in situations where one would expect it to be more of an issue. My other camera (5DII) does have an AA filter and I have encountered moire issues — very rarely, but it at least two situations it required some tricky work in post to deal with it.

I honestly don't know what the answer is relative to the 5Ds versions. Since friends who often photograph similar subjects have had very good experiences with AA-less cameras like the D810, and because my own experience with a camera without AA filtering has been positive, I'm currently planning on the R model — but I have to wonder how much difference it will make in the end.

Regarding the idea of removing AA filtering from a camera that has it, in most cases it seems to me that the difference in actual photographic output is marginal at best — and that most people would see little real benefit in their photographs.

Dan



Apr 29, 2015 at 09:52 AM
Jon Joshua
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


Does removing the AA filter affect your ability to clean the sensor?


Apr 29, 2015 at 09:59 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


darbo wrote:
Yes I agree the 5D series has a weak AA filter. I use an a7R and although the sheer greater resolution of the a7R resolves more detail, I don't see any softness in my 5D III files by comparison.

I have experienced moire in images I have captured from all the cameras I have used - whether they have an AA filter or not. One of the worst cases was from a Sony a7 capture (has an AA filter). So, regarding 5DS vs 5DS R I am uncertain which to choose (if I elect to purchase either). On the one hand
...Show more

Again, I don't know the answer to this definitively, but I do know that the d800 effective resolution vs the d800e was more than nominal based on Dxomark.

I plan to buy the 5dsr -
I shoot mainly landscape and there are not that many patterns
Higher mpx alleviate some of the moire
I have not seen any troubles on using my a7r
If moire is an issue, I will use my 5diii
Avoiding sharpening differences in posting size etc, is desirable to reduce processing. Hopefully less sharpening is needed.
I don't want to buy a 50mpx camera and degrade it to `eg 36mpx for the sake of 1/1000 pictures encounting moire based on d800 v d800e.



Apr 29, 2015 at 10:02 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


Jon Joshua wrote:
Does removing the AA filter affect your ability to clean the sensor?


Nope - they replace it with clear filter is my understanding. I have cleaned my a7r (does not have aa) sensor.




Apr 29, 2015 at 10:37 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


This is a link to very informative article (from a company that removes AA filters and does IR conversions) on AA filters, how they work and why you can still get moiré when they are present. The images show the CFA and the split (not blurred) images created by the AA filter - I learnt a lot from the article.

The moiré observed when an AA filter is present does not necessarily indicate the filter is "weak", just that the moiré is generated by spatial frequencies interacting with both G's in the RGBG array - a 2x2 AA filter does not prevent such moiré - a 3x3 filter would be needed to completely eliminate such moiré and that would cause unacceptable blurring on the R and B. The 2x2 is therefore a compromise. It helps reduce false colour from non-repeating features as well as reducing moiré and aliasing. (I have yet to be convinced that surmises in the relative strengths of AA filters in different cameras actually reflect such differences, given how much other things can influence the "data" upon which surmises are based and how hard it is to do the with/without comparison to isolate the effect.)

The (relatively early implementation of) Olympus and Pentax pixel shift technology shows much promise for ways around the limitations of the Bayer array (once they get acquisition of the successive images fast enough with e.g. global shutter) whether to actually improve resolution or just provide full RGB data for each sensel and provide better colour data (respectively).



Apr 29, 2015 at 10:44 AM
billsamuels
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


I had my IR modified camera (Rebel SR1) done by LifePixel. Does anyone know if they remove the Low-Pass Filter as part of the IR filter installation process?

Most of my photography is landscape anyway, so I don't think that I will deal a lot with the issues of Moire. And if I do, I think that's what Lightroom can remove anyway.



Apr 29, 2015 at 12:33 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


billsamuels wrote:
I had my IR modified camera (Rebel SR1) done by LifePixel. Does anyone know if they remove the Low-Pass Filter as part of the IR filter installation process?

Most of my photography is landscape anyway, so I don't think that I will deal a lot with the issues of Moire. And if I do, I think that's what Lightroom can remove anyway.


Yes, the AA filter is being removed in this process including the ultrasonic sensor dust cleaner if available.

Regarding comments above, I can clearly see a resolution improvement between my regular color 5D MkII with AA filter and the one which was converted to infrared with AA filter removed. The Raw files from the IR-converted body -even in IR - are sharper (same settings in both camera bodies applied).



Apr 29, 2015 at 12:47 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


Nearly all of the acuity lost from an AA filter can be restored with the right sharpening workflow and much of the acuity gained from the lack of an AA filter is false detail.

D800 vs D800E Sharpening
D810 vs D800 vs D7100 Resolution



Apr 29, 2015 at 01:26 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


snapsy gets at my thinking on much of this, based on working with cameras with and without the AA filter. The original image seems to be sharper without the AA filter compared to captures that have one, but in post I have to adjust sharpening settings to lower levels with the AA-free camera.

In the end, after using both approaches, I remained unconvinced that there is a significant difference in my final product, which is a print — at least once I take the image through post-processing workflows designed to optimize each initial image. (I don't doubt that there a visible differences if one inspects the screen display at 100% magnification — I'm far less certain that those differences amount to much in a print.)

Dan

Edited on Apr 29, 2015 at 07:32 PM · View previous versions



Apr 29, 2015 at 01:53 PM
frickerg
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


As a quick aside for OP, the canon 6d does not have an AA filter


Apr 29, 2015 at 03:07 PM
Lauchlan Toal
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


Scott Stoness wrote:
I don't know the answer to your question but I find it interesting that when I look at dxomark resolution tests, the canon 5dIII gets pretty close to its maximum resolution (22 effective mpx) with existing lens without the aa filter removed. Whereas the d800 typically fails to achieve more than about the same resolution (22 effective mpx) with the aa no removed. Whereas the d800e and d810 do achieve much higher resolution than 22effective mpx with good lens.

This suggests to me that the resolution benefits you will see will be not great on the canon lens [ or
...Show more

Yeah, the D800 filter was very strong, and the 5DIII's very weak. The 24MP D610 also has an AA filter, and generally scores the same as the D800 for sharpness - chances are Nikon popped a stronger AA filter than usual in the D800 because of the D800e model - give one sharpness, and absolutely eradicate moiré in the other.



Apr 29, 2015 at 04:50 PM
Monito
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


frickerg wrote:
As a quick aside for OP, the canon 6d does not have an AA filter


Wrong.

Read the specification at the Canon USA site for the 6D.



Apr 29, 2015 at 06:12 PM
Dpedraza
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Low-Pass filters removed in Canon cameras


all Canon cameras have an AA filter. They're not at strong as some of the other manufacturers though. Well at least it seems they're weaker. My 5dc i didn't need to sharpen much neither my 1dsmII


Apr 29, 2015 at 07:47 PM
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