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Archive 2015 · Merrill purchase: long term viability

  
 
nandadevieast
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


Hi,
I already own a dp2 merrill and looking to add 1 and the 3. As we know, the line has been discontinued.
Only problem is, the batteries. Right now, bp41 is available and so is db65 (the ricoh generic). I can get wasabi batteries as well.
But, in the long run, few years down the line, what will happen.
Is this battery very common? If thats the case, then it will still be manufactured couple years later perhaps.
Being lith-ion batteries, the current production will be dead in few years, even without usage.
It may not be wise to plan so much far into future, but feels a bit odd buying cameras with the knowledge that the batteries may not be available in the future.
On a seperate note: these are absolutely great little cameras.
Thanks,
Nde



Apr 19, 2015 at 01:05 PM
danski0224
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


Batteries for the 2002 Canon 1D are still available...

Might as well get them now and enjoy.

Maybe Sigma will release something better in the future.



Apr 19, 2015 at 01:09 PM
millsart
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


What if they stop making SD cards at some point in the future too ? Then what will you do...

Do you think any proprietary battery is going to be produced forever ?

Guess you could just stick with camera's that take AA batteries if its a big concern if you'll still be able to find batteries in 10 or 15 years, but then again, do you really think you'll still be shooting the camera by the time batteries run out ?

What if you stock pile tons of batteries and the shutter or other parts on the camera break and Sigma doesn't even service them due to lack of parts ?

Then it makes the whole battery concern rather silly




Apr 19, 2015 at 02:32 PM
apsphoto
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


Actually the DP Merrills are not discontinued, they are still being sold, still advertised on the Sigma site and still available from places like B&H. The Quattros are the new ones but the sensor is different. There are plenty of after market batteries, so I don't think that will be an issue, and I believe one of them is the same battery as some other maker uses.

I think the camera will fail long before the battery supply.

All camera are eventually retired. Just the nature of consumer electronics.

Alan



Apr 21, 2015 at 10:53 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


millsart wrote:
What if they stop making SD cards at some point in the future too ? Then what will you do...

Do you think any proprietary battery is going to be produced forever ?

Guess you could just stick with camera's that take AA batteries if its a big concern if you'll still be able to find batteries in 10 or 15 years, but then again, do you really think you'll still be shooting the camera by the time batteries run out ?

What if you stock pile tons of batteries and the shutter or other parts on the camera break and Sigma doesn't
...Show more

That's a lot of words. Maybe next time you could condense it to, "I lack empathy, so instead I mock you."

Not that I think you're wrong. I wouldn't worry about the batteries either. I am surprised to find out the DP's don't have a standard battery across the platform. Very poor planning.



Apr 21, 2015 at 11:43 PM
nandadevieast
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


Hi,
Thanks for the inputs.
Yes, i know, i know, and i am not fretting over it. But the concern remains valid, if you are buying a discontinued camera or a camera no longer being produced.
Have been using my dp2m for more than 3 years, and if i buy the 1 or 2, i do intend to use them for some time.
Merrills are not a consumer product in a typical way. You don' get mark ii and iii's every six month here. I feel there is nothing wrong with expecting to shoot them for a long time, especially when what's on offer is already quite substantial and mature.
I was hoping to hear, hey, there are 25 other compacts using the same battery, so no need to worry. Looks like that's not the case.



Apr 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM
galenapass
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


Just buy some more batteries. There is no issue here.


Apr 22, 2015 at 10:07 AM
danski0224
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


nandadevieast wrote:
Hi,
Thanks for the inputs.
Yes, i know, i know, and i am not fretting over it. But the concern remains valid, if you are buying a discontinued camera or a camera no longer being produced.
Have been using my dp2m for more than 3 years, and if i buy the 1 or 2, i do intend to use them for some time.
Merrills are not a consumer product in a typical way. You don' get mark ii and iii's every six month here. I feel there is nothing wrong with expecting to shoot them for a long time, especially when what's on offer
...Show more

I would buy them and enjoy them now.

The images that you "miss" now and in the future by not buying the camera(s) is (are) at least an equal concern compared to battery availability in the future.

Just a guess, but I'd expect that the batteries will be around for a while. They do fit at least one other camera, but the model escapes me at this time.

Even so, who knows what new things will be available in 5 years.



Apr 22, 2015 at 10:26 AM
JohnBrose
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


Even if the batteries become no longer available, the vast majority of battery packs can be rebuilt at places like Batteries plus etc. By the time you need new batteries though, I'd guess you'll be on to new models any way.


Apr 22, 2015 at 10:42 AM
galenapass
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


Its the Ricoh GR - same battery. I have 4 batteries that I have set aside for future use. The batteries are cheap....and so are Merrills.


Apr 22, 2015 at 10:44 AM
millsart
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


freaklikeme wrote:
That's a lot of words. Maybe next time you could condense it to, "I lack empathy, so instead I mock you."

Not that I think you're wrong. I wouldn't worry about the batteries either. I am surprised to find out the DP's don't have a standard battery across the platform. Very poor planning.



I'm not mocking him to me mean, but rather making a silly post to try to illustrate how silly his fears are, in a hope he can get perspective and go enjoy a great camera.



Apr 22, 2015 at 06:39 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


galenapass wrote:
Its the Ricoh GR - same battery. I have 4 batteries that I have set aside for future use. The batteries are cheap....and so are Merrills.


Lithium-ion batteries start degenerating as soon as they are manufactured, even if they're not used.



Apr 22, 2015 at 06:49 PM
galenapass
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


Yes, but degradation is minimal while in the refrigerator - next to the Velvia.


Apr 22, 2015 at 07:15 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


galenapass wrote:
Yes, but degradation is minimal while in the refrigerator - next to the Velvia.


http://www.howtogeek.com/179486/ask-htg-should-i-store-my-batteries-in-the-fridge/



Apr 22, 2015 at 07:27 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


OT, but if only the Merrills had viewfinders—I would buy all three. I had the DP2M, and it makes superb images as everyone knows, but with no finders...


Apr 22, 2015 at 08:25 PM
galenapass
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


snapsy wrote:
http://www.howtogeek.com/179486/ask-htg-should-i-store-my-batteries-in-the-fridge/


Well if you search hard enough you can find nonsense on the web to support your case. Let's look at what this article really says:
"Practically speaking, however, there’s next to no reason to put your batteries in the fridge. Whatever gains you might get in shelf-life using the technique would be offset by potential problems. Micro condensation on and inside the battery can damage it and cause corrosion.[Not an issue when stored in a sealed bag with desiccant - you wouldn't store your film in unsealed containers, so why store batteries that way? Silica gel desiccant is easily ordered of Amazon, or just use some rice.] Extremely low temperatures (such as a very chilly portion of the fridge or placing them in a freezer as some people erroneously advise) can further damage the batteries. [Simple - don’t put batteries in those locations]. Even if you don’t outright damage the battery, you have to wait for the battery to warm up to use it and keep it from gathering condensation if the room is humid.” [Of course, this is common sense]

Chemists have been slowing chemical reactions down with temperature for years - batteries produce electricity purely from chemical reactions.

The data below show that at 40% charge, a lithium ion battery loses just 2% capacity over one year when stored at 0 C (most freezers are -20C and most refrigerators are within a few degrees of 0 C). There really is very little happening when stored at lower temperatures. So if you want to store batteries for future use, put them in the refrigerator with a little common sense. Note that apparently Li ion batteries "prefer" a 40% charge on storage.








Apr 22, 2015 at 09:53 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


galenapass wrote:
Well if you search hard enough you can find nonsense on the web to support your case. Let's look at what this article really says:
"Practically speaking, however, there’s next to no reason to put your batteries in the fridge. Whatever gains you might get in shelf-life using the technique would be offset by potential problems. Micro condensation on and inside the battery can damage it and cause corrosion.[Not an issue when stored in a sealed bag with desiccant - you wouldn't store your film in unsealed containers, so why store batteries that way? Silica gel desiccant is easily ordered of
...Show more

The chart you presented is consistent with what the article I linked stated - the difference in retained holding capacity between storing at refrigerated temps vs room temperature is only 2 percent and for that modest 2% gain you risk damaging the battery.



Apr 23, 2015 at 08:25 AM
galenapass
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


After 5 years you are at 90% capacity after lower temp storage and 80% at room temp. The OP is worried about long term availability of batteries. Storing at low temp is completely valid alternative to get the most out of your batteries long term. With proper storage, there is no reason to promote unsubstantiated paranoia regarding the use of low temperature storage.

Regardless, it is silly to not buy a camera based upon undetermined availability of batteries. Just buy some extra and store them, and if you want to eek them most out of that storage do it at low temp.



Apr 23, 2015 at 08:48 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


galenapass wrote:
With proper storage, there is no reason to promote unsubstantiated paranoia regarding the use of low temperature storage.

From Energizer:

Q: Is it a good idea to store batteries in a refrigerator or freezer?
A: No, storage in a refrigerator or freezer is not required or recommended for batteries produced today. Cold temperature storage can in fact harm batteries if condensation results in corroded contacts or label or seal damage due to extreme temperature storage. To maximize performance and shelf life, store batteries at normal room temperatures (68°F to 78°F or 20°C to 25°C) with moderated humidity levels (35 to 65% RH). When stored at room temperature (i.e. 70°F/ 21°C), cylindrical alkaline batteries have a shelf life of 5 to 10 years and cylindrical carbon zinc 3 to 5 years. Lithium Cylindrical types can be stored from 10 to 15 years. Prolonged storage at elevated temperatures will shorten storage life.

From Panasonic:

Q: Where is the best place to store my eneloops? Does the storage-temperature matter? Can they be stored in a freezer?
A: The best place to store any battery, rechargeable or not, is in a dry cool place, such as a drawer, under your bed or in a closet. Keep them away from the possibility of coming in contact with extreme heat. It is recommended to store them at or around 24 degrees Celsius. It is not recommended to store them in a freezer, as it is best to keep such materials away from food products.

From Duracell:

Q: Should I store my batteries in the refrigerator or freezer?
A: We recommend storing batteries at room temperature in a dry environment. Extreme heat or cold reduces battery performance. You'll want to avoid putting battery-powered devices in very warm places. In addition, refrigeration is not necessary or recommended.



Apr 23, 2015 at 08:59 AM
galenapass
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Merrill purchase: long term viability


Again,

(1) Store at low temp, but don't freeze. I think that everyone agrees on this point.

(2) Store in a sealed container with desiccant, as I mentioned. This takes care of the condensation issue.

Of course manufactures are NOT going to recommend the best way of minimizing capacity loss...just the safest for them. They take a very conservative route because not everyone uses common sense.

I have never had an issue, but, believe what you will.

EDIT - Look folks, if you are wondering about battery storage at room temp vs ~ 0C, snapsy has brought up some good points. It would seem that the biggest issue here is condensation. That is not going to be good for a battery. It is probably my fault for assuming everyone understands this and knows what to do to avoid such issues. I would not be dissuaded from storage in the refrigerator based upon some internet articles and manufacture suggestions. The first reference above focuses on the problem and does not suggest a solution, and manufacture suggestions are aimed at storage least likely to cause an issue. Look at the data and make up your own mind. If you think the battery is going to be stored for about a year, why worry about a few % capacity loss? If the battery is stored for use sometime in the future, then why not store it properly for maximum retention of capacity? Here are a few simple steps to completely avoid the issue of condensation.

(1) Use a canning jar that can seal well
(2) Use a good desiccant. A very common desiccant that is used is Drierite, which can be purchased on Amazon. It has a convenient indicator dye built in that will tell you if the desiccant is still good (blue = good, purple/pink =bad), removing any issue of guess work. If the Drierite is purple/pink throw it out and use fresh material. Put about one inch of desiccant in the bottom of the jar, then put the batteries on top. Close the lid and store.
(3) When removing the battery take the whole jar out of the refrigerator and let it come up to room temp. Remove the battery and re-store the jar if it has more contents. Always remember to let things come up to room temp before opening the jar.

It's that simple. How do I know? Well, I have a PhD in Chemistry and have put in more than 20 years at the bench. I have dealt with a wide range of water sensitive reagents and although this is just one method to deal with the issue of condensation (there are much more extreme methods), it will more than suffice for something as relatively inert as a battery.
Whether storage at lower temp is useful or not is up to the individual but be aware that the issue of condensation is rather simple to deal with and should not be a reason to abandon the idea of storage in the refrigerator.



Apr 23, 2015 at 09:05 AM
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