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Archive 2015 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma

  
 
schlotz
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


In an earlier NASL thread a specific foul was briefly brought up. (Photo below)

There was little question as to the "acting" that took place but at the same time recognizing it also can be difficult for a ref to spot depending on position and timing. We all want the right call to be made, which has brought on the advent of tech assist in other sports starting with instant replay, challenges etc... Even Pro-soccer has started it via review of the ball crossing the goal threshold.

So here is the question to mull over. Does all this technology actually homogenize a sport and ultimately remove an element that makes the sport what it is?

Flame Jacket ON!

Matt







Result: Yellow Card ???




Apr 16, 2015 at 08:25 AM
mikekeating
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


This is a timely posting. We had an issue last night at the Varsity Soccer Game. Forward is running down the sideline, chips the ball past the defender, forward goes around the defender to get the ball and is hooked under her arm and "hip checked" down. Result is a foul on the forward. I got a shot of it (see below). . .parents and coaches in a uproar.





© mikekeating 2015


Foul on green . . .and a warning that next time is a card.



Edited on Apr 16, 2015 at 10:54 AM · View previous versions



Apr 16, 2015 at 08:42 AM
Russ Isabella
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


No doubt an issue with many sides to it. One thing I feel sure of is that in most cases, still photos are not appropriate for review purposes. I say this because I think there are two problems associated with still photos for this purpose: 1) they can be misleading, whether because of the particular angle or even focal length of the lens involved creating a kind of distortion that isn't obvious (e.g., two things in the photo looking closer to one another, or farther away from one another, than they actually are) or because the moment portrayed is not necessarily the most telling with regard to the play in question; 2) they have that "you had to be there" quality to them in that, as with Matt's photo above, I can't see anything in that photo that would provide even a smidgeon of evidence regarding a foul, (I have no idea what might be going on with contact between those two players), yet Matt, having been there and seen the play in question, sees this photo as evidence of something. The second photo in this post certainly shows two arms interlocking, but without a lot more "information" about what has come before, there's no way this photo allows for a "better" decision than the one made on the field.

So I guess that for me, one of the criteria for reviews should be that the "evidence" used for review must be of the sort that someone with knowledge of the sport and its rules could come to that evidence blind to the game from which that evidence was drawn and based only on that evidence make a determination. Neither of these photos meets that criterion, and I'm not sure that many photos could.



Apr 16, 2015 at 09:03 AM
schlotz
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


Just for clarification, the acting was performed by the player in green that resulted in a yellow card for the player in blue.

Legit points there Russ, and I totally agree in regards to still photos are not and should not be used. The other point I was attempting to bring up for discussion is whether or not the continual applying of more sophisticated technology can diminish the humanistic sparkle of a sport?

Mike, the dimensions showing are over 1000 pixels. Just resize to 800 on the long edge and repost via editing your post



Apr 16, 2015 at 09:52 AM
TrojanHorse
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


mikekeating wrote:
This is a timely posting. We had an issue last night at the Varsity Soccer Game. Forward is running down the sideline, chips the ball past the defender, forward goes around the defender to get the ball and is hooked under her arm and "hip checked" down. Result is a foul on the forward. I got a shot of it (see below). . .parents and coaches in a uproar.

I have no idea why the image is huge.


That's an awesome defensive move right there!

And parents and coaches being in an uproar is otherwise known as situation normal in soccer. It's funny to listen to the histrionics on both sidelines whenever something questionable happens, and of course, refs at the club / high school level seem to be particularly inept.

Had a ref at State Cup last weekend tell my daughter's coach he wasn't going to call any hand balls. You know, out loud, with his lips. W. T. F.

As for the OP - no way soccer tolerates a stoppage of play to review flopping footage, it would absolutely kill the game.



Apr 16, 2015 at 10:05 AM
Russ Isabella
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


schlotz wrote:
....The other point I was attempting to bring up for discussion is whether or not the continual applying of more sophisticated technology can diminish the humanistic sparkle of a sport?


Matt: I think so, yes. Though it is difficult to know where to draw the line, I feel there has to be some allowance for the fact that officials are human and their judgments and decisions therefore are subject to 'error' (though even this can be difficult to define the more we are talking about a "judgment call"), just as we have no choice but to allow for the humanness of the athletes (not that as fans we are necessarily forgiving in this regard ).




Apr 16, 2015 at 10:34 AM
pmartin4665
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


Apparently this opponent forgot he was playing HS soccer vs. Greco-roman wrestling . . . I apologize that the images aren't sharp but they provided documentation as to the player's poor sportsmanship.



























Apr 16, 2015 at 10:37 AM
mikekeating
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


Yikes, what was the call?

Agree about parents getting into an uproar (normality) in Soccer. This foul was interesting in the fact the green player is 4'11 and the defender was about 5'8" (at least). Probably would not have been that big a deal to tell you the truth, had the ref made the extra statement about next time it was a card. Bad calls are part of the game (well, probably all games with a ref/ump) and green had some go their way too.

And for complete transparency: green is my daughter.



Apr 16, 2015 at 11:18 AM
pmartin4665
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


The referee refused to acknowledge the transgression, much to the dismay of the coach/parents. The photographs were provided to the HS Athletic Director and I'm not sure what the final outcome was or if it went any further.


Apr 16, 2015 at 11:23 AM
Trevorma
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


1) I think all sports that have the ability to have replay should have replay on ANYTHING. That said like the NFL you get "X" number of challenges and that is all. It's up to you to decide what to use them on and when.

2) Last season while shooting a road football game I captured a play that decided the game. The QB of the home team was clearly down before he released the ball, in fact both knees were kicking up rubber pellets, and even his non-throwing elbow showed some pellets kicked up..... the pass was ruled a completion for a TD, it was the final play of the game that preserved an undefeated season for the home team and elminitaed the road team from the playoffs. Coach of the team I shoot for was right by me, asked me if I had it, I told him I was not sure (didn't want to pour flames on the situation). Coach was ejected for screaming his head off at official. One of the side judges came over to me and asked me nicely if I had the shot.... I showed him but the ruling had already been made. The AD used my photos to file a complaint, that I don't think anything came of.....

3) No matter what a picture shows if it is OOF I would NEVER send it anywhere..... EVER! If it were the game winnning catch of the superbowl and OOF it is still just another OOF shot. Never let people see OOF shots no matter what it "shows".



Apr 16, 2015 at 11:43 AM
Russ Isabella
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


With a wink to Matt for opening this can of worms knowing full well where it would lead....

There are ethics involved here.

1. Any system of review must be unbiased--the nature of the content for review, the availability of that content, the likelihood for the existence of that content--all must be without any imbalance that would favor one team over another.

2. In many instances, photographers are biased, as revealed by this thread. Some are required to be neutral, but many others have no such requirements. This would seem to work against my first point (such as, for example, if a photographer's image that would work in his/her team's favor were shared for review purposes, but another photo that would work against his/her team's best interests was not shared for review purposes).

3. As long as photographs are not part of any official review process, it is inappropriate to offer photographs for review purposes (for the reasons listed here and in my previous post). I have experienced at least one instance where a photographer was asked to leave an event for offering a photo as "evidence," with the coach for one (visiting) team happy to see that evidence and the coach for the home team pulling rank and claiming the photographer had no right to be there against the home team's desires. I can imagine this happening almost as often as a photographer choosing to become involved.

I could go on, but I'll spare you......thanks, Matt.



Apr 16, 2015 at 03:43 PM
mikekeating
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


I agree Russ, there could be an inherent bias (especially when shooting your kids). I know when I am in the stands I am one of the bigger homers out there. When I am shooting, I do not show reaction or say anything. The coaching staff is very nice and gives me a bit (actually a lot) closer access during the games. And I do not want a player making a compliant that I am stating something or interfering and placing the coach, school and my kid in an awkward situation.

My wife thinks it funny (that I do not say anything), She texted me (from the stands) after that foul and wanting me to offer some "constructive criticism" to the ref and defender



Apr 16, 2015 at 05:11 PM
Russ Isabella
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


Mike: Hahaha! Oddly enough, through my daughter's high school and college soccer career, the only way I could keep my mouth shut was to photograph the games, so I hear what you're saying.


Apr 16, 2015 at 06:21 PM
retnug
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


According to the MLS web site all games are reviewed. Cards that are issued can be followed up with additional disciplinary action that can include suspensions and fines. This includes instances where the disciplinary committee unanimously determines that a player has embellished even if the referee did't see it that way or ignored the act.

I think this is good in that it does't alter the flow of the game but a player may or will be disciplined later and hopefully alter their actions knowing that in the future there is a possibility that he will miss future matches.

Soccer is a tough sport for instant replay on activities that don't stop the game. Ball across the goal line is one use of it. But for instance, if there is a lengthy stoppage for some foul where there was extra curricular activity there may or may not be time for someone in a booth to look at replay and notify the center ref in a timely manner that one guy punched another. But the saving grace is that this will most likely be reviewed after that fat by the disciplinary committee and the offending player may be suspended of fined before the next match.

Of course this does't work for non televised of recorded games like high school and club.
Its not perfect but its something.

Just my thoughts.
Thanks
G-



Apr 16, 2015 at 07:17 PM
gschlact
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


Russ Isabella wrote:
Mike: Hahaha! Oddly enough, through my daughter's high school and college soccer career, the only way I could keep my mouth shut was to photograph the games, so I hear what you're saying.


+10



Apr 16, 2015 at 08:56 PM
Pinata
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


I shoot ultimate frisbee.

At Beach Worlds in Dubai in March, I was able to set a result right by showing a photo.

At Worlds, there are no refs. The players make their own calls.

We score by catching a pass in an American football style endzone.

On this play, a receiver was headed directly toward the back endzone line. Big dive, great catch with a spray of sand. The defender called the receiver out. The receiver had no idea where he was and his momentum carried him off the field.

It wasn't even close to being out of bounds. The player's first point of contact was about 6' in from the back line.

I told the guys that I had the shot. At Worlds, players are encouraged to ask to see a photo if someone has something that's definitive. I had been so far from their field that they didn't know I was there.

The defender was eager to see the shot even though it could only cut against him. He was surprised, but I told him that from his angle it directly behind the receiver it would be very difficult to know what was going on.

The defender's team was a little confused (we had language issues, but the defender involved in the play spoke English), but glad to have had the correct result.

In the US, we're not to show photos to influence a call. I very much prefer it this way. We have some ref-like officials in the US, and they will ask me off the record about a close call they might have made. If they missed the call, I'll claim focus, uncertainty, etc. If they got the call, I'll show them. I don't want them worrying about a blown call when they're in the middle of a game. All those discussions are off the record - small sport and the same officials work College Nationals, Club Nationals, etc.

There's a very strong tradition of good-natured heckling in the sport. I really have to go mute when I'm shooting. If I know the players really well (e.g. teammates from reunion tourneys, league, etc.), I might heckle while shooting but only if no one else is around. One I couldn't resist was when my league teammate made a great catch (at Nationals) going over backwards in a flip and coming up with on his knees holding the disc up. Perhaps the best catch I've seen him make in the 10 years I've seen him play. We were on a far corner field away from HQ and the press, so I screamed, "Boring!"




May 16, 2015 at 05:41 PM
crteach
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


Pinata wrote:
If they missed the call, I'll claim focus, uncertainty, etc. If they got the call, I'll show them. I don't want them worrying about a blown call when they're in the middle of a game.]/b]


Excellent approach! Speaking as a former volleyball ref, I appreciate your attitude on this (but from my perspective I wouldn't even ask you to see a photo in the first place until well after the match).



May 19, 2015 at 09:31 PM
Pinata
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


There's was a really close up/down call by one of the very top observers in the first game. I was half-expecting him to ask, but all he did was say, "Hand was under the disc, clearly a catch." (Players are used to making up/down calls in unreffed games)

It is fun, because the officials know they are off the record. So they'll say things to me or we'll even have some conversations with zero eye contact. All during dead time and between points.

I should note: officials ask to see pics maybe once in 30+ hours of shooting.




May 23, 2015 at 07:27 AM
Dishno
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Technology vs Humans: The Yellow Card Dilemma


Just watched a game (Manchester United at Hull City). Hull City player punched a ManU player, no action taken by the referee crew. They didn't see the punch. But the league will review the game and punish the player for his actions.
Regrettably not all things will be seen or called by officials regardless of the sport.



May 24, 2015 at 07:05 PM





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