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Archive 2015 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?

  
 
jimmy462
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


Hi All,

As a Canon shooter who is looking at various platforms to upgrade from my aging Canon 5D2 and 7D, I am looking for some feedback regarding Nikon's current offerings. I understand that no manufacturer is yet making the über/everything camera to fit all my needs, so I am currently considering a mixed-platform solution for my next moves.

In researching solutions for my wildlife imaging needs for a pixel-dense, crop camera I was, naturally, drawn to see what Nikon was offering with their DX and FX/DX cameras. And, long-story short, my considerations are down to basically the D810 and the new D7200 to replace my 7D. (FWIW, the D750 is in contention with a Sony a7s as my 5D2 replacement.)

Now, I know there are trade-offs involved here regarding fps and build quality between a D7200 and a 7D Mark II, but I am more interested in high ISO capabilities and DR performance versus frame rates and weather-sealing. (i.e. I ofttimes shoot in challenging outdoor natural lighting situations, so given a choice between 10 fps @ noisy ISO 6400, vs. 6 fps @ clean ISO 6400, I'll take the latter! And, of course, the added DR under ISO 800 is already a plus!)

While waiting around for some controlled-testing reviews to appear, I did find some early ISO-sequence test shots from the D7200 here (all images below viewable @ 100% and downloadable!)...

Hayuki/Veno D7200 RAW ISO25600 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/31204622@N02/16235265523/in/photostream/


...and here...

fotoMAGAZIN Nikon_D7200_18_105_ISO 25600 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotomagazin/16676104120/in/photostream/


...and here...

Photoblogia.pl DSC_0106 (ISO 25600)| Flickr - Photo Sharing!:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotoblogia/16307981233/in/photostream/


...and I am curious to hear some of the early feedback and subjective observations from the Nikon folks regarding this new camera, and what they might have to say as to how it compares to the D810 (in DX mode) regarding High ISO performance and DR. (Anyone, shooting both?)

Any and all feedback is welcomed!
Jimmy G




Apr 05, 2015 at 12:40 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


Here is a link to some controlled testing results that was done by Bill Claff. He does some quite remarkable work in this area. The link shows the full d810 results, the d800 DX crop results and the full d7200 results.

The differences between the DX crop and the d7200 are insignificant, IMO, but I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Kerry



Apr 05, 2015 at 06:49 PM
jimmy462
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


Kerry Pierce wrote:
Here is a link to some controlled testing results that was done by Bill Claff. He does some quite remarkable work in this area. The link shows the full d810 results, the d800 DX crop results and the full d7200 results.

The differences between the DX crop and the d7200 are insignificant, IMO, but I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Kerry


Hi Kerry,

Thanks for the link to that ISO/DR tool, much appreciated.

Curiously, the D810 has two entries, one for FX (your link) and another at that page for DX. In FX mode the D810 has the highest values for DR per ISO setting throughout the value range, according to these tests. And the DR values in DX mode are roughly 0.7-stops lower per ISO at the low-ISO end increasing to about 1-full-stop difference at higher ISOs. In fact, the D810 in DX mode is showing poorer DR performance than the D7200 across the entire range.

Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO: D810 (DX), D7200, D810
http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR.htm#D810(DX),D7200,D810

Perhaps I'm being daft here, but is there some obvious reason that I am missing as to why the D810 is losing DR when it is reading/recording only the center 15MB of pixels in DX mode?

I've clearly got more homework to do!
Jimmy G

Edit: Oop, got it...two lengthy threads on this topic here...

Dynamic range D800 FX vs DX: Nikon FX SLR (DF, D1-D4, D600-D800) Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3535182

...and here...

Dynamic range D800 FX vs DX - round two : Nikon FX SLR (DF, D1-D4, D600-D800) Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3535999




Apr 05, 2015 at 11:17 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


Sorry that I didn't include the d810 DX crop in my response. I looked for it and didn't see it, which is why I substituted the d800 DX crop.

I am rather surprised that it is so different than the d800, but when I look at the chart with both, I can see that the d800 has a slightly higher overall score than the d810, which would explain the DX difference.

AFAIK, Bill used test shots from my d810 to do his measurements. I hope that my d810 isn't some oddball.

Regardless, as you've seen in those threads, this topic can be quite controversial. I don't pretend to understand it all, but I have more faith in stuff like Bill's testing than I do in Joe Average's opinion.

Kerry



Apr 06, 2015 at 01:05 PM
jimmy462
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


Hi Kerry,

After reading Bill Claff's explanation of his data representations here...

Sensor Analysis Primer – Engineering and Photographic Dynamic Range:
http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/GeneralTopics/Sensors_&_Raw/Sensor_Analysis_Primer/Engineering_and_Photographic_Dynamic_Range.htm

...and, after muddling through a fair amount of those two lengthy threads over at DPR I'm thinking I'm getting a handle on what the value differences represent between FX and DX on both the D810 and D800(e) regarding "Photographic DR" as relates to printing considerations.

Bill states, "PDR is the dynamic range you would expect in an 8x10” print viewed at a distance of about arms length." from here...

Sensor Analysis Primer –Photographic Dynamic Range Summary:
http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/GeneralTopics/Sensors_&_Raw/Sensor_Analysis_Primer/Photographic_Dynamic_Range_Summary.htm

...which I take to read, "An 8x10" print from D810 FX @ 36MP = Highest PDR per ISO, an 8x10" print from D7200 DX @ 24MP = next highest PDR per ISO, and 8x10" print from D810 DX @ 15MP = Lowest PDR per ISO of these three camera parameters."

Time for me to do some field testing with my friend's D800, along with getting some belly-time at the camera counter at B&H for some hands-on with a D810 and D7200. Nothing like playing with some RAW files to get a better idea what a camera can actually deliver!

Again, thanks for the link to Bill Claff's work, I always appreciate a good technical background on the technology I'm "playing with"!


Jimmy G



Apr 06, 2015 at 10:37 PM
lorac
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


In addition I still like looking at images, perceiving the impression directly for my own "subjective" evaluation. If you hadn't noticed, Dpreview has added the D7200 to their comparison tool, here's the link:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3962526848/studio-update-nikon-d7200-and-panasonic-gf7-added

As good as the D7200 is, it inevitably falls short of the latest FX models.



Apr 07, 2015 at 12:10 AM
Kerry Pierce
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


You are certainly welcome, Jimmy. Glad to that the links helped.

FWIW, one of the reasons I bought a d800 was for the DR. Certainly, it is better than most other cameras, but it still has its limits. IMO, the really high DR scenes are still a problem and still need to be shot properly, ie with fill flash or reflectors, etc. At least I need to do that. I don't have the PP skills to do those images and make them look as good as the same scene that I do with fill flash and/or reflectors. I get much more natural looking images doing the latter techniques.

I don't have a d7200, yet anyway, but I'll probably buy one later on. I do have the d7100 and I much prefer using that for any long telephoto work over the d800 in DX mode or the d800 with heavy cropping. But, a lot of that is personal preference and the types of shooting that I do. I shoot sports much more than wildlife and I like the viewfinder magnification that comes with using DX/APS-C. I also like the 24mp vs 15.5mp of the d800 dx crop. If I still need to crop, the 24mp certainly has the advantage.

It seems to me that a lot of bird shooters seem to prefer the d800/d810 to the d7100. Whether or not that will remain true with the d7200, I don't know.

If I were just doing landscapes, I really don't know what I'd buy. At low ISO, I'm not sure that there's a significant difference, unless you're printing very large prints or like to view your images at 100%. At any rate, YMMV on anything that I've said. Unlike some, I don't pretend that my way is the best way for everyone.

good luck with your quest.
Kerry




Apr 07, 2015 at 04:37 PM
jimmy462
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


lorac wrote:
In addition I still like looking at images, perceiving the impression directly for my own "subjective" evaluation. If you hadn't noticed, Dpreview has added the D7200 to their comparison tool, here's the link:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3962526848/studio-update-nikon-d7200-and-panasonic-gf7-added

As good as the D7200 is, it inevitably falls short of the latest FX models.


Hi Lorac,

Thanks for the heads-up on the DPR studio tests!

Studio comparison shots, such as those found at DPR and Imaging Resource, where the scene is shot to give the same FOV between FF and crop sensors of various sizes, tell only part of the story when it comes to sensor performance. It answers the question, "how do various cameras perform at a set FOV?" This method of testing falls in line with the PDR method discussed earlier, in that it favors FF sensors when it comes to DR per FOV. And it also favors higher MP sensors when it comes to resolution, or pixels-per-angle-of-view.

Imaging Resource states that all their testing is done with a Sigma 70mm lens (and I'll have to assume that DPR also employs a similar test control method to maitain the same FOV between cameras). This would mean that they must be positioning various cameras either closer or farther from their test scene to create the same FOV in their image output. A DX camera with a 70mm lens sees a smaller FOV than a FX camera...therefore the DX would have to be positioned farther from the test scene to show the same FOV as the FX camera. Obviously the 36MP FX camera will out-resolve and out-DR the 24MP DX camera!

The comparison tests I'd love to see is where FF and crop cameras shoot the same target from the same distance with the same lens so that one can evaluate the effects of a DX camera vs in-camera cropping with an FX camera!


Jimmy G



Apr 07, 2015 at 06:30 PM
lorac
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


jimmy462 wrote:
Hi Lorac,

Thanks for the heads-up on the DPR studio tests!

Studio comparison shots, such as those found at DPR and Imaging Resource, where the scene is shot to give the same FOV between FF and crop sensors of various sizes, tell only part of the story when it comes to sensor performance. It answers the question, "how do various cameras perform at a set FOV?" This method of testing falls in line with the PDR method discussed earlier, in that it favors FF sensors when it comes to DR per FOV. And it also favors higher MP sensors when it comes
...Show more

Yes these studio tests have some value, but are certainly only one piece to the puzzle.Still waiting for lots of D7200 images for real world performance. Hopefully some direct comparisons in upcoming reviews.




Apr 07, 2015 at 07:03 PM
jimmy462
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


Kerry Pierce wrote:
You are certainly welcome, Jimmy. Glad to that the links helped.

FWIW, one of the reasons I bought a d800 was for the DR. Certainly, it is better than most other cameras, but it still has its limits. IMO, the really high DR scenes are still a problem and still need to be shot properly, ie with fill flash or reflectors, etc. At least I need to do that. I don't have the PP skills to do those images and make them look as good as the same scene that I do with fill flash and/or reflectors. I get
...Show more

Having the extra couple of stops of DR is what has me looking beyond Canon's offerings. Articles like this one...

Creative Underexposure with Nikon DSLRs:
http://petapixel.com/2014/11/24/creative-underexposure-nikon-dslrs/

...caught my attention. There is wonderful light out there, at all hours of the day, and I'm always challenging myself to see what I can accomplish with existing light.


I don't have a d7200, yet anyway, but I'll probably buy one later on. I do have the d7100 and I much prefer using that for any long telephoto work over the d800 in DX mode or the d800 with heavy cropping. But, a lot of that is personal preference and the types of shooting that I do. I shoot sports much more than wildlife and I like the viewfinder magnification that comes with using DX/APS-C. I also like the 24mp vs 15.5mp of the d800 dx crop. If I still need to crop, the 24mp certainly has the advantage.


I am clearly not alone in facing the "shoot my FX in DX mode, or just buy a dedicated DX camera?" question. And, I may be a bit too early in coming to the boards with my questions since the D7200 has just hit the shelves. And, I've certainly been asking myself whether 24MP DX vs 15MP crop is a fair question for my needs! Ha! But my comparison is more (my current) 7D @ 18MP vs D7200 or D810 cropped.



It seems to me that a lot of bird shooters seem to prefer the d800/d810 to the d7100. Whether or not that will remain true with the d7200, I don't know.


Yes, I have more homework to do to see what other shooters are doing in situations similar to mine.


If I were just doing landscapes, I really don't know what I'd buy. At low ISO, I'm not sure that there's a significant difference, unless you're printing very large prints or like to view your images at 100%. At any rate, YMMV on anything that I've said. Unlike some, I don't pretend that my way is the best way for everyone.


Always nice to hear others' experiences, and I appreciate your generosity in taking the time for your posts!


good luck with your quest.
Kerry



Likewise,
Jimmy G



Apr 08, 2015 at 06:29 AM
dale keith
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


Dear Canon,

Both the Nikons mentioned, D810 and D7200, are loaded with myriad features. I use a D810 most of the time and a D7100 for my daughter when we shoot together. If you have to buy one camera and have a limited budget, the D7200 is a very reasonable option for a DXer. If you want HUGE files and full frame, the choice is the D810. I would suggest to match the camera to what you shoot 80% of the time.
Good luck with your choice and do not try to compare the Nikon to a Canon as they both work and you will end up slitting hairs.
Nikon shooter, Dale



Apr 08, 2015 at 06:59 AM
jimmy462
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


dale keith wrote:
Dear Canon,

Both the Nikons mentioned, D810 and D7200, are loaded with myriad features. I use a D810 most of the time and a D7100 for my daughter when we shoot together. If you have to buy one camera and have a limited budget, the D7200 is a very reasonable option for a DXer. If you want HUGE files and full frame, the choice is the D810. I would suggest to match the camera to what you shoot 80% of the time.
Good luck with your choice and do not try to compare the Nikon to a Canon as they
...Show more

Hi Dale,

As I mentioned in my first post, the key "features" that I am interested in are High-ISO performance (preferably a relatively clean ISO 6400+) and the ~14-bits of DR at the low end. You're right, folks can make themselves bleary-eyed looking at all the specs and features! But in this case it's all about sensor performance for me, even at the expense of fps and build, in considering either of the D7200 or D810 as my next step forward from my 7D wildlife/nature photography needs.

My consideration that the D810 might work as a do-it-all (crop wildlife & FF landscape) camera vs. a D7200 for strictly crop-shooting wildlife, may well be posing more trade-offs than I am currently seeing here. Ergo, my posting here.

I agree, the D7200 seems like a very good option for my needs. I have weighed the cost of matching (in part) my lens needs should I make this move...while replacing my 300-800mm is currently out of the question, I would definitely grab another Sigma 120-300mm OS and TCs for a Nikon body!

Thanks for your thoughts here,
Jimmy G






Apr 08, 2015 at 07:57 AM
lorac
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


jimmy462 wrote:
Hi Dale,

As I mentioned in my first post, the key "features" that I am interested in are High-ISO performance (preferably a relatively clean ISO 6400+) and the ~14-bits of DR at the low end. You're right, folks can make themselves bleary-eyed looking at all the specs and features! But in this case it's all about sensor performance for me, even at the expense of fps and build, in considering either of the D7200 or D810 as my next step forward from my 7D wildlife/nature photography needs.

My consideration that the D810 might work as a do-it-all (crop wildlife & FF
...Show more

high iso performance is a key issue for me as well, but overly optimistic to expect relatively clean iso 6400 from a NIkon DX body. Fairly clean iso 1600 is optimistic and likely the threshold which I'm not sure has been achieved yet. Should quality that for not optimal light, in full daylight iso 1600 should be fine.



Apr 08, 2015 at 12:43 PM
dale keith
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


High ISO would direct me to the D810 - larger sensor, larger pixels, more stuff to tease on the computer. Take a look at the latest iteration of the 80-400 VR Nikon lens. Not too bad for nature but slower than the Sig. Recently, I purchased the Sig 150-600 but am still testing for birds and such critters.

It is amazing how things have changed. I remember pushing Kodak 400 - for you young guys, that is film.
Dale



Apr 09, 2015 at 06:46 AM
jimmy462
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


lorac wrote:
high iso performance is a key issue for me as well, but overly optimistic to expect relatively clean iso 6400 from a NIkon DX body. Fairly clean iso 1600 is optimistic and likely the threshold which I'm not sure has been achieved yet. Should quality that for not optimal light, in full daylight iso 1600 should be fine.


Hi lorac,

Your very points were part of the reasons why I posted links to those three (3) flickr test images in my original post. I was curious (and hopeful! ) if there were any users of either or both the D810 and D7200 who might offer up their assessments of these early results!

In comparing the images at flickr to the test images at IR and DPR, it appears to me that the acceptability of noise levels of the D7200 at ISO's of 6400 (and up) are clearly dependent on lighting conditions and exposure, well, at least to my eyes. All the more reason for my desire for hearing from Nikon-familiar eyes when looking at these files. I clearly need to sit down with whatever available test RAWs I can find from these two cameras and push them around in post to see what I think!


Jimmy G



Apr 09, 2015 at 07:11 AM
jimmy462
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


dale keith wrote:
High ISO would direct me to the D810 - larger sensor, larger pixels, more stuff to tease on the computer.


Hi Dale,

And "there's the rub", for me, in this equation when considering these two cameras against my 18MP 7D. Should I go for "slightly less pixels" but "really good" pixels from the D810 at 15MP DX, or "not as good as D810 pixels" but "still better than 7D pixels" with a D7200! Welcome to my craziness!


Take a look at the latest iteration of the 80-400 VR Nikon lens. Not too bad for nature but slower than the Sig. Recently, I purchased the Sig 150-600 but am still testing for birds and such critters.


Checking out lenses that my Nikon-shooting friends are using is something I am eagerly looking forward to doing! However, I am quite enamored with my 120-300mm f/2.8, and it gets most of my, er, "work" done!

It is amazing how things have changed. I remember pushing Kodak 400 - for you young guys, that is film.
Dale


FWIW, I missed film so much, I went out and purchased two Canon film bodies last year...just to scratch that itch! And, I agree, these are amazing and exciting times for imaging, I'd have never dreamt of today's possibilities when I first picked up a camera, um, "way back when"!


Jimmy G



Apr 09, 2015 at 07:51 AM
Christian H
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


Speaking as a wildlife photographer, I'd say that noise is rarely a limiter for high-ISO shooting with these modern sensors. The problem is that COLOR falls apart around ISO 1600. The precise location of that tipping-point varies among bodies and subject light and colors, but the test images you posted show what I mean. You can squeeze a bit more out of the D3s, D4s, and even the D750, but at some point you just have to wait for better light.

I shoot with D8xx bodies these days, and my rule of thumb is that anything up to ISO 1600 will show minimal noise with great colors, whatever the light. Higher ISOs can work, but only in very good light. I might use them to ramp up my shutter speed, but not to compensate for low light, per se.



Apr 09, 2015 at 09:19 AM
jimmy462
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


Christian H wrote:
Speaking as a wildlife photographer, I'd say that noise is rarely a limiter for high-ISO shooting with these modern sensors. The problem is that COLOR falls apart around ISO 1600. The precise location of that tipping-point varies among bodies and subject light and colors, but the test images you posted show what I mean. You can squeeze a bit more out of the D3s, D4s, and even the D750, but at some point you just have to wait for better light.


Hi Christian H,

Loss of color depth at high-ISO's is a common problem (to my knowledge) across all platforms and is already a problem I face with my 7D. It becomes a question of degree, then. Given that my 7D comes in with a DxO-tested color depth of 22 bits, I'll gladly take any improvement in that regard! FWIW, DxO reports 25.7 bits for the D810, and the D7200 has not yet tested by them. Comparing the 7D Mark II, at 22.4 bits, is part of the reason I am looking over the fence at what Nikon is offering.

As for, waiting for better light, well, it's not too hard for me to find EV 5 conditions in the middle of a sunny day while shooting deep in the woods. As I shoot my subjects in the light I find them in, any help in sensor performance is what I'm after.

I shoot with D8xx bodies these days, and my rule of thumb is that anything up to ISO 1600 will show minimal noise with great colors, whatever the light. Higher ISOs can work, but only in very good light. I might use them to ramp up my shutter speed, but not to compensate for low light, per se.

I agree, and your advice is sound. However, while shooting Louisiana Waterthrushes at their muddy stream-side nest feeding their young ones required me to boost ISO to 6400 at f/5.6 (widest I could go at 800mm) just to get my shutter speed up to 1/60 second (at noon!). Needless to say, neither the 7D nor the 5D2 were up to the task. The 7D does just fine giving me the shutter speeds I need under ISO 1600 on sunny days, though it would be nice to enjoy some extra DR at lower ISOs!

Thanks for sharing your experiences, it is appreciated!
Jimmy G



Apr 09, 2015 at 08:05 PM
John Skinner
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


Had the original poster not mentioned the Canon line whatsoever, I would have started a new thread to ask this. And, this is not a hijack of the thread.

But I've no access to a series 800-- body whatsoever. Given the sample images that have been touted across the web for the upcoming Canon EOS 5DS and 5DS R models, has anyone done a simplistic comparison to the 800 series RAW file and those already released on the 2 Canon models?

Of course I'm speaking of DR, Image itself etc... I know what the 7000 series can produce. I'm just wondering as MP are not the 'end all to beat all' as we can all attest to.



Apr 09, 2015 at 08:24 PM
jimmy462
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · D7200 High ISO & DR vs D810?


John Skinner wrote:
Had the original poster not mentioned the Canon line whatsoever, I would have started a new thread to ask this. And, this is not a hijack of the thread.

But I've no access to a series 800-- body whatsoever. Given the sample images that have been touted across the web for the upcoming Canon EOS 5DS and 5DS R models, has anyone done a simplistic comparison to the 800 series RAW file and those already released on the 2 Canon models?

Of course I'm speaking of DR, Image itself etc... I know what the 7000 series can produce. I'm just
...Show more

Hi John,

It's an interesting question as Canon is now following Nikon's lead by finally allowing a FF camera of theirs to shoot in crop modes, too. The pixel pitch on the 5Ds (R) is 4.14µm and matches closely the pixel pitch on both their 7D Mark II and 70D at 4.1µm, which, given Canon's past practices of reusing identical/similar sensor technology across several products, leads me to think that this is more-of-the-same "technology repurposing" going on here with these newer cameras.

It's not that I haven't considered going this route in my deliberations for replacing my 7D. A 5Ds (R) shot at 1.6 crop would be 5424 x 3616 vs. the 7D2's 5472 x 3648. But if the 5Ds line ends up delivering the same 22.4 bits of color and 11.8 EVs of DR as the 7D2, then I'm better off continuing to look at the D810 with its 25.7 bits of color and 14.8 EVs DR. Well, for my current needs and desires.

We'll all have to be patient and wait for the D7200 and 5Ds tests and reviews to come out.

Thanks for jumping in here with that!
Jimmy G



Apr 09, 2015 at 11:31 PM





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