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Archive 2015 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!

  
 
micloi
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Based on a clever suggestion of a forum member I tried something that seems to shed some light to the VR issue that some people experience.

I tried 3 copied of the 300mm pf lens on many cameras and never had an issue with VR in low speeds as suggested from some reviews and forum members.

After a suggestion that mirror slap could be the issue on ungripped cameras (and especially the D810) I tried the test below which I was able to replicate.

The D7200 works ok at every speed with or without a grip.

ON THE OTHER HAND the D810 works ok with the grip (how I was always using it thus I never experienced the issue before) BUT as soon as I removed the grip the VR issue surfaced!

D7200 GRIPPED:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16187250/Nikon%20300mm%20pf/VR%20test/D7200%20gripped.jpg

D7200 NO GRIP:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16187250/Nikon%20300mm%20pf/VR%20test/D7200%20no%20grip.jpg

D810 GRIPPED:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16187250/Nikon%20300mm%20pf/VR%20test/D810%20gripped.jpg

D810 NO GRIP:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16187250/Nikon%20300mm%20pf/VR%20test/D810%20no%20grip.jpg

Edited on Mar 28, 2015 at 03:01 PM · View previous versions



Mar 28, 2015 at 02:02 PM
roger1
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


whoa ! so the grip on the 810 helps the VR ?


Mar 28, 2015 at 02:15 PM
micloi
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


I think that it changes the frequency of the mirror slap in some way


Mar 28, 2015 at 02:19 PM
Neddie Seagoon
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Ah yes, natural frequency harmonics have been the bane of engineers since, well since there were engineers. See the Tacoma Narrows Bridge disaster for a really spectacular example.


Mar 28, 2015 at 02:22 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Neddie Seagoon wrote:
Ah yes, natural frequency harmonics have been the bane of engineers since, well since there were engineers. See the Tacoma Narrows Bridge disaster for a really spectacular example.


That would do it.



Mar 28, 2015 at 02:28 PM
lorac
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Very interesting.


Mar 28, 2015 at 02:48 PM
marc2307
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Makes good sense,

I pick mine up on Tues and asked the retailer to test it with a D4 & D4s, which is what I'll be using it on, and there was NO VR low S/S problem.



Mar 28, 2015 at 03:09 PM
iamjoenish
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Nice work Micioi! I find that the mirror slap on my D750 reduces when using a grip on that as well. Granted, I don't own the 300 PF, using the grip makes the body a lot more solid while shooting.

Referring to the D7200, Is the shutter/mirror mechanism any different from D7100?



Mar 28, 2015 at 03:42 PM
Chris Dees
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Wow, I couldn't believe it but did a quick try and I can confirm it.
50% crop same settings

No I have to buy a grip for my D7100, or even better, buy a D7200.












Mar 28, 2015 at 04:08 PM
Danner
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Interesting. Monday, my PF has been at Nikon Torrence for four full weeks, and I am seriously thinking of requesting they send it back, without repair.


Mar 28, 2015 at 04:34 PM
gpelpel
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


I do not have a grip to run tests on my D810 but I think this is very useful work. Thanks micloi!

I hope Nikon reads this thread.



Mar 28, 2015 at 05:11 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Chris Dees wrote:
Wow, I couldn't believe it but did a quick try and I can confirm it.
50% crop same settings

No I have to buy a grip for my D7100, or even better, buy a D7200.




Nice test Chris. Thanks for posting this. Amazing how visible the difference is.



Mar 28, 2015 at 06:22 PM
ChazMills
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


I've been using the grip with my D810 all along without positive improvement. I'll try to further refine my technique and see if that makes a difference. That said, if I can shoot the new Nikon 800mm f5.6 tripod-mounted in the bottom of a drifting, shallow draft boat and get critically sharp images without VR @ 1/200 sec, my technique would seem to be reasonably sound.

2 of the bottom 3 posts on page 15 of this thread: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1346257/0 suggest there may be more to this issue than the simple absence or presence of a grip.

It's all gonna get sorted out. If I have to send my wonderfully sharp copy of the lens back in for adjustment/replacement of parts, so be it.



Edited on Mar 28, 2015 at 09:56 PM · View previous versions



Mar 28, 2015 at 09:38 PM
Birdbrooks
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


It seems to make sense that if the same newer-generation VR motor and system as is used on, say, the 80-400G, where it works wonderfully, might be "too much" for a lens that weighs half as much, but that's just an off-the-cuff hunch.


Mar 28, 2015 at 09:53 PM
Chestnut
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Hmm... I don't own a 300/4 PF yet... (maybe in my future?) But I wonder if having an L-Bracket or a QR plate mated to the body would have the same effect as having a vert/batt grip on (changing the natural freq. harmonics)?


Mar 29, 2015 at 02:43 AM
Chris Dees
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Chestnut wrote:
Hmm... I don't own a 300/4 PF yet... (maybe in my future?) But I wonder if having an L-Bracket or a QR plate mated to the body would have the same effect as having a vert/batt grip on (changing the natural freq. harmonics)?


Good idea.
I have a RRS L-bracket for my D810 and indeed it works!!

Tried the same L-bracket on my D7100 and the same improvement as well.
With a smal plate the difference is not that noticeable.



Mar 29, 2015 at 06:32 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


The Sony A7r has a significant shutter vibration issue that can affect IS on certain lenses. It was discovered that adding a 1lb weight to the bottom of the camera eliminates the problem (here). Another solution is to add weight to the top of the camera - adding a Speedlite + batteries worked for me. Here is a link comparing the effectiveness of a Speedlite vs a grip on the A7r (post).

For D810 owners it would be interesting to see if the source of the VR-affecting vibration source is the mirror or the shutter. You can establish that with some quick experiments of using exposure delay mode of 3 seconds (holds the shutter up so equivalent to MLUP) and then trying the regular exposure mode but with the EFCS enabled. Then trying both.



Mar 29, 2015 at 08:57 AM
Kubicide
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Have to also wonder if this could be a factor related to power: voltage or current related. The grip adds additional capacity with it's battery as is seen with the increased FPS when attached, and this may be solving the problem.

The 300mm is unique with it's electromagnetic diaphram so perhaps the current/power demand (or interaction between the two features) is affecting the stabilization mechanism. If it is power related aside from the grip/no-grip use camera batteries themselves would likely be one factor explaining why some users have problems while others don't. Batteries will have varying current and voltage characteristics between users with some being 'fresh' and others older with lower voltage and discharge capacity. Lens contacts (conductivity) will also vary between bodies.

Would be interesting to see someone with an affected lens test this theory by measuring batteries or the voltage from the front lens contacts.



Mar 29, 2015 at 09:21 AM
micloi
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


Actually someone added a plate and it also worked. So some kind of weight is needed under the camera from the looks of it. More experimentation needed to confirm!


Mar 29, 2015 at 11:41 AM
Jay968
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 300mm pf VR issue possible explanation!


I've been experimenting with the lens using both a D810 and a D750 at various shutter speeds and both with and without a monopod. I do not have a grip for either camera.
Here are some observations;
D810 - VR is basically useless between 1/60 and 1/180 and actually makes matters worse. It does very very little at the higher shutter speeds but if I have to pick from my results, I would say that it's better to leave it on at high speeds (1/1000 or faster) than off. At 1/30 and slower, the VR helps but I wouldn't shoot at those speeds with this lens without using a tripod or at least a monopod anyway. While the VR helps, results are pretty unacceptable to me at those speeds. A monopod does help at 1/125 but it seems to make no (or extremely little) difference whether VR is turned on or off.
D750 - Improved VR between 1/60 and 1/180. Here the VR actually does its job and results look better than with it turned off. At 1/1000 and higher VR does help with this camera but differences are subtle. So, pretty much the same results as the D810. Interestingly, when used with a monopod, the D750 does seem to produce a bigger difference between using VR and turning it off. The difference isn't big but images definitely look better with it turned on.

Question -- if people are basically suggesting that the D810 needs to be made heavier by using the grip or an L-bracket or something else that weighs it down a bit, then why is it that an even lighter camera (D750) seems to work a bit better with the VR in this lens? Is it not necessarily the overall weight but the combination of weight, damping ability, shutter and mirror that are coming into play?
So far, I am basically concluding that with the D810, the lens is basically a 1/250 and higher shutter speed capable lens and VR helps a bit. At anything slower, it needs a tripod or monopod and VR should be turned off. With the D750, it works more as it should and can be used at slightly slower speeds with VR, but I think the best results are probably left to using it the same way as I had mentioned for the D810.
So, as far as spending an extra $600 on this lens instead of the older 300, I would say what you are really essentially paying for is a smaller lighter version of the 300. To me, this is worth it as the difference in size and weight is very very nice. It's sharp when used correctly and I would take it in a heartbeat over the older lens.



Mar 29, 2015 at 02:27 PM
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