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Archive 2015 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

EB-1
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p.26 #1 · p.26 #1 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

ggreene wrote:
The user base simply does not care about two colors on a sensor chart. They just want ood photos and Canon continues to provide them with that. It may not be what we want to hear but forum posters do not make up a sizable percentage of the marketplace.

I think we can all agree with that.

EBH

Apr 01, 2015 at 07:27 PM

mttran
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p.26 #2 · p.26 #2 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

Pixel Perfect wrote:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7633/16995694122_7365d75707_o.jpg

Can you explain first graph? It says shadow DR improvement vs ISO, but why is ideal at zero and D800/D750 also very low. It seems the plot is either arse about or it's shadow DR loss compared to ideal which makes sense. The Nikons are superb and close to ideal and the Canons are very poor and 5Ds while having smooth monotonic curve is no better than 5DII/III

It works the way as the plot shown. This is why we can use "ML" tricks from another frame to get better shadows DR for most canon bodies. However, this does not stretch their limited DR, anything we boost from lower end will be clipped almost the same "EV" value at higher end. So with "ML" support, 5Ds/r might do same trick to mask the faulty/unwanted noise when hitting the limited DR scenes and maybe...bity bit better than its default IQ. 5Ds/r just another typical canon marketing tricks, low iso IQ should be the same like most canon older ff bodies. I have decided to skip and hold on to my 1Ds2.

Apr 02, 2015 at 03:18 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.26 #3 · p.26 #3 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

It has been lovely here in Death Valley for the past five days. No, I mean the national park. ;-)

Apr 03, 2015 at 08:34 AM

jctriguy
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p.26 #4 · p.26 #4 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

mttran wrote:
It works the way as the plot shown. This is why we can use "ML" tricks from another frame to get better shadows DR for most canon bodies. However, this does not stretch their limited DR, anything we boost from lower end will be clipped almost the same "EV" value at higher end. So with "ML" support, 5Ds/r might do same trick to mask the faulty/unwanted noise when hitting the limited DR scenes and maybe...bity bit better than its default IQ. 5Ds/r just another typical canon marketing tricks, low iso IQ should be the same like most canon older ff...Show more →

What part of the new camera is a marketing trick?

Apr 03, 2015 at 10:23 AM

ggreene
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p.26 #5 · p.26 #5 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

jctriguy wrote:
What part of the new camera is a marketing trick?

Have no idea as Canon representatives have said that it has similar DR to the 5D3 so they are being up front about it and not trying to deceive anyone. It's a 50MP sensor. That's it main feature. If that appeals to you in a DSLR you now have an option.

In a perfect world I really wish Canon would hire the Magic Lantern guys. I think they could significantly improve the functions on Canon's camera's if they could actually work with the development teams. Low grade investment for a good return.

Apr 03, 2015 at 06:01 PM

mttran
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p.26 #6 · p.26 #6 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

gdanmitchell wrote:
It has been lovely here in Death Valley for the past five days. No, I mean the national park. ;-)

May the DR to be with you

Apr 05, 2015 at 09:33 AM

timbop
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p.26 #7 · p.26 #7 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

ggreene wrote:
Have no idea as Canon representatives have said that it has similar DR to the 5D3 so they are being up front about it and not trying to deceive anyone. It's a 50MP sensor. That's it main feature. If that appeals to you in a DSLR you now have an option.

In a perfect world I really wish Canon would hire the Magic Lantern guys. I think they could significantly improve the functions on Canon's camera's if they could actually work with the development teams. Low grade investment for a good return.

This is something that has been rattling around my brain for a while as well. My conclusion is that there is a patent or intellectual property restriction of some kind; it makes no technical sense for canon not to embrace the idea.

Of course, it could simply be pride

Apr 05, 2015 at 02:30 PM

mttran
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p.26 #8 · p.26 #8 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

mttran wrote:
In Bill's last plot, notice the current purple color (DR) code on almost all canon bodies since 1Ds (2002) while other MFG has already surpassed canon in two different (DR) colors code. I am wonder how long more canon can keep the royalty ship going. This usually takes both ways to work ... if you think a decade is not a long waiting then I don't know what is.

ggreene wrote:
That is also a decade of strong sales for Canon. How many bodies has Nikon thrown at the 5D3 and they still can't surpass it in sales. It's still ahead of the D800/D800E/D810/D750 on Amazon's top selling DSLR's and it's 3 and half years old.

The user base simply does not care about two colors on a sensor chart. They just want good photos and Canon continues to provide them with that. It may not be what we want to hear but forum posters do not make up a sizable percentage of the marketplace.

Look again at canon DSLR decade long with some flat DR, this has nothing to do with whom is on the top selling chart. Some consumer just want a better DR tool for their canon lenses, is it something too hard for you to understand. Since when people has the right telling others that what they need and what to buy

what's next

Apr 05, 2015 at 03:47 PM

Monito
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p.26 #9 · p.26 #9 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

mttran wrote:
is it something too hard for you to understand. Since when people has the right telling others that what they need and what to buy

what's next

Nobody is doing that. Just stop, please.

Apr 05, 2015 at 04:30 PM

ggreene
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p.26 #10 · p.26 #10 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

mttran wrote:
Look again at canon DSLR decade long with some flat DR, this has nothing to do with whom is on the top selling chart. Some consumer just want a better DR tool for their canon lenses, is it something too hard for you to understand. Since when people has the right telling others that what they need and what to buy

what's next

Canon is a business first and foremost. If you don't think sales has anything to do with their developmental priorities then you are sadly disillusioned. This has nothing to do with what you or I or anyone else wants in terms of features. It has everything to do with Canon looking at a return on a significant investment in a down time for the whole camera industry. If low ISO DR was the difference maker that you and a few others think it is Nikon and Sony wouldn't be losing money on there camera's either.

Apr 05, 2015 at 04:52 PM

jctriguy
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p.26 #11 · p.26 #11 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

what's next

You really love the strawman argument. No one has ever said any of that, and certainly not in the post you quoted. It is 100% up to canon to release products that they feel are in their best interests. If that doesn't match with what a consumer wants, don't buy them. Thy don't owe anyone a higher DR camera to use with their lenses.

What ggreene is stating, is a simple fact that canon continues to sell a lot of cameras relative to Nikon. That indicates that many people like what they have to offer. Again, if that doesn't suit your needs, you are free to purchase anything that you think does meet you needs.

Apr 05, 2015 at 04:57 PM

leftcoastlefty
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p.26 #12 · p.26 #12 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

I’ve been mulling my next purchase for a long while. Going to Fuji was a consideration, as was getting a 5DS. In the end, I decided to get a second 5D3. The IQ isn’t perfect, but it is well within the range of acceptable and everything else about the body is just lovely. I cherish the AF, the high ISO, and the great ergonomics.

So I’m living in 2012, with my two 5D3s and my Photoshop CS6. And I’m fine with that because I came to realize that none of this new stuff adds anything to my arsenal**. My current kit works really really well.

**Actually one thing did. My new Macbook Pro with a flash drive. Wow! This thing is fast!

Apr 06, 2015 at 11:51 AM

jctriguy
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p.26 #13 · p.26 #13 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

ggreene wrote:
Canon is a business first and foremost. If you don't think sales has anything to do with their developmental priorities then you are sadly disillusioned. This has nothing to do with what you or I or anyone else wants in terms of features. It has everything to do with Canon looking at a return on a significant investment in a down time for the whole camera industry. If low ISO DR was the difference maker that you and a few others think it is Nikon and Sony wouldn't be losing money on there camera's either.

The latest camera shipping numbers for the 1st quarter don't bode well for mirrorless. Dslr sales went up, mirrorless went down. Makes a lot of sense that canon isn't in a panic about loss of sales to other companies.

Apr 06, 2015 at 12:36 PM

darbo
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p.26 #14 · p.26 #14 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

ggreene wrote:
Canon is a business first and foremost. If you don't think sales has anything to do with their developmental priorities then you are sadly disillusioned.

I agree. And so the 5DS and 5DS R actually surprises me somewhat. It's a niche camera designed for a very small segment of users who need maximum detail (landscape, architecture, studio) and I wonder if it is going really sell well (I hope it does!). For my part I greatly appreciate that they are releasing a camera designed to meet some unique needs.

Apr 06, 2015 at 12:50 PM

bclaff
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p.26 #15 · p.26 #15 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

Based on these read noise measurements I have estimated the Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) as you can see here
I don't see these results, if they hold up, as disappointing.
Canon has done quite well without being the leader in low ISO dynamic range.

When the camera is available I hope to measure dark and illuminated Fixed Pattern Noise (FPN)
These results can be hard to quantify but pattern noise can make a camera that seems otherwise to have great dynamic range produce less than stellar results.

I'm not actively monitoring this thread but will get notifications of replies to this post.

-Bill

Apr 07, 2015 at 01:59 AM

Stoffer
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p.26 #16 · p.26 #16 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

bclaff wrote:
Based on these read noise measurements I have estimated the Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) as you can see here
I don't see these results, if they hold up, as disappointing.
Canon has done quite well without being the leader in low ISO dynamic range.

When the camera is available I hope to measure dark and illuminated Fixed Pattern Noise (FPN)
These results can be hard to quantify but pattern noise can make a camera that seems otherwise to have great dynamic range produce less than stellar results.

I'm not actively monitoring this thread but will get notifications of replies to this post.

-Bill

Hi Bill....

Thanks for doing that.

Interestingly, you estimate that the 5DS will do somewhat better than 5D Mark III and 1D X as people can see here.

Is that merely based on the lack of pattern noise or is there another source for this projected improvement?

Apr 07, 2015 at 02:15 AM

bclaff
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p.26 #17 · p.26 #17 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

Stoffer wrote:
Hi Bill....

Thanks for doing that.

Interestingly, you estimate that the 5DS will do somewhat better than 5D Mark III and 1D X as people can see here.

Is that merely based on the lack of pattern noise or is there another source for this projected improvement?

The estimate is based on a mathematical model driven primarily by read noise and pixel pitch, so pattern noise is not taken into account. The real numbers could be higher or lower, historically these estimates have been pretty close.

Apr 07, 2015 at 02:26 AM

alundeb
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p.26 #18 · p.26 #18 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

Apr 07, 2015 at 02:47 AM

bclaff
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p.26 #19 · p.26 #19 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

alundeb wrote:
Does your model incorporate photon conversion efficiency (QE) or color filter density?

Indirectly overall QE since I use an estimate for the conversion gain and that relates to Full Well Capacity (FWC) which relates to QE.

Apr 07, 2015 at 02:53 AM

Stoffer
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p.26 #20 · p.26 #20 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

bclaff wrote:
The estimate is based on a mathematical model driven primarily by read noise and pixel pitch, so pattern noise is not taken into account. The real numbers could be higher or lower, historically these estimates have been pretty close.

Thanks. If 5DS is going to surpass the 1D X about 2/3 of a stop on DR, I would be very happy. I really think that is all I would need, because the 1D X is already doing a fine enough job for me when I have to raise the shadows quite a bit. But each to his own, of course.

Apr 07, 2015 at 03:23 AM

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