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Archive 2015 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)

  
 
Deezie
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p.25 #1 · p.25 #1 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


Alundeb wrote:
Just curious to know what part of the specs of the 5Ds that are limiting, what MFD system you chose and how much more you expect of that system, quantified.


For me, the 5Ds specs aren't limiting since I shoot mostly in studio with base ISO, I actually sense that the 5Dsr would be a good compliment to my needs because I can use my existing L lenses and I'm already familiar with the camera body and menu system. I am going to wait and see what 5Dsr can do, and I will certainly buy it if it offers value to my shooting. I don't sense the moire will be an issue. It certainly isn't with most MFD cameras that are absent of an AA filter.

I just bought the Pentax 645z (from a FM member) because I had a chance to test it in advance and review the files. The larger sensor and pixel size is ideal for my clients needs. Dynamic range is rarely an issue for my type of shooting, but it's nice to know that it's there with this camera. Additionally, I like the form factor of the body. It feels good in my hands and very familiar to just about anyone who's used one of the larger dslr's.

I get tired of these theoretical jockeying back and forth on who's right and wrong about the upcoming Canon cameras, and I tend to skip all the posts with posturing and theoretical debates, ad nauseam. We won't really know if these new cameras – which seem promising – will work for any of us until we actually test it. It's a relative thing based on our own specific needs.



Apr 01, 2015 at 09:56 AM
mttran
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p.25 #2 · p.25 #2 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


RustyBug wrote:
Okay, thanks.

I could use some help with Unity ISO and ISOless ISO ... what do they mean / infer?


Sorry for the delay Rus. This is straightly from William Claff:

Unity ISO is also called Unity Gain. Conversion gain is the factor that converts a number of electrons to a Digital Number (DN, also called ADU) produced by the Analog to Digital Conveter (ADC). Conversion gain is proportional to the ISO setting. Unity ISO (Unity Gain) is the ISO at which one electron equals one DN. If you know this number you can compute conversion gain for any ISO; conversion gain = ISO / (Unity Gain). Astrophotographers are also interested in Unity ISO because of the very low light they deal with.

Some cameras are entirely "ISO less" because they never change conversion gain. The Sigma brand cameras are an example. Most cameras increase conversion gain with the ISO setting. A camera is considered "ISO less" if raising the ISO setting on the camera doesn't do any better than adjusting the picture later. Some cameras, like the Nikon D7000, are essentially "ISO less" even at the lowest ISO setting. But for many cameras raising ISO helps up to a point and then no longer helps. You can see this visually in the Input-referred Read Noise charts; the camera becomes "ISO less" where the curve levels out. I compute the "ISOless ISO" as a point on that curve where the slope is less than 1/3EV improvement. This is my way of objectively computing where the curve "levels out".



Apr 01, 2015 at 09:57 AM
mttran
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p.25 #3 · p.25 #3 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


Here are some 5Dsr estimated DR from William Claff's site: http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/index.htm

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7633/16995694122_7365d75707_o.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7599/16971137656_23b41eacd2_h.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7615/16781196348_99f3418d9a_h.jpg

These have been posted before in many DR threads and none of them was welcomed here, really don't know why Anyway, we still live in the same DR batch like the old days.



Apr 01, 2015 at 10:52 AM
Access
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p.25 #4 · p.25 #4 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


Can you guys do us all favor and turn the abrasiveness setting in your cameras down a notch or two?

I'm sure the rest of the board would appreciate it.



Apr 01, 2015 at 12:48 PM
RustyBug
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p.25 #5 · p.25 #5 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


mttran wrote:
Sorry for the delay Rus. This is straightly from William Claff:

Unity ISO is also called Unity Gain. Conversion gain is the factor that converts a number of electrons to a Digital Number (DN, also called ADU) produced by the Analog to Digital Conveter (ADC). Conversion gain is proportional to the ISO setting. Unity ISO (Unity Gain) is the ISO at which one electron equals one DN. If you know this number you can compute conversion gain for any ISO; conversion gain = ISO / (Unity Gain). Astrophotographers are also interested in Unity ISO because of the very low light
...Show more

Okay, thanks ... will need time to digest. Likely more to follow to confirm / refute my comprehension as it develops.



Apr 01, 2015 at 03:33 PM
alundeb
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p.25 #6 · p.25 #6 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


The information and interaction is still here, and was my main attraction to this thread. The OP posted interesting and new data, but was unsure about one part, the black point. I helped him to clarity on that part, improving the accuarcy and reliability of the data. That part was fun for me and him.


Apr 01, 2015 at 04:20 PM
ggreene
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p.25 #7 · p.25 #7 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


There is only one entity that will resolve this dispute and so far Canon has shown little interest in low ISO DR. If that particular feature had a larger market with a bigger impact on sales they might shift their priorities but so far it hasn't been the difference maker for Sony or Nikon as their camera revenues are down as well. Sony's success is with cell phone sensors not camera's. Their own projections show this.

It's not going to happen until Canon thinks that market is a legitimate difference maker and they can recover their costs.

The 5Ds/R are easy decisions on their part even though those bodies play to a small market as well. The investment needed to do it is so much smaller.



Apr 01, 2015 at 04:35 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.25 #8 · p.25 #8 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


I was following this thread with great interest but unfortunately the discussion changed from informative and civil to something else. At this point I will remove many posts not pertinent to the discussion.
If any any of your posts have been removed, please reflect on why that may be as I will no longer allow threads to be derailed in this fashion.
Fred



Apr 01, 2015 at 05:04 PM
mttran
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p.25 #9 · p.25 #9 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


panicatnabisco wrote:
You understand that, but not those charts you posted earlier?


Sure I do, just want to delay my replies to read someone minds here. One way to communicate better to people whom I am dealing with in daily life



Apr 01, 2015 at 05:16 PM
Monito
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p.25 #10 · p.25 #10 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


alundeb wrote:
The information and interaction is still here, and was my main attraction to this thread. The OP posted interesting and new data, but was unsure about one part, the black point. I helped him to clarity on that part, improving the accuarcy and reliability of the data. That part was fun for me and him.


Thank you for your part in it. You helped me with my concerns about the reliability of the OP as stated on page 5.



Apr 01, 2015 at 05:40 PM
mttran
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p.25 #11 · p.25 #11 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


ggreene wrote:
There is only one entity that will resolve this dispute and so far Canon has shown little interest in low ISO DR. If that particular feature had a larger market with a bigger impact on sales they might shift their priorities but so far it hasn't been the difference maker for Sony or Nikon as their camera revenues are down as well. Sony's success is with cell phone sensors not camera's. Their own projections show this.

It's not going to happen until Canon thinks that market is a legitimate difference maker and they can recover their costs.

The 5Ds/R are easy decisions
...Show more

In Bill's last plot, notice the current purple color (DR) code on almost all canon bodies since 1Ds (2002) while other MFG has already surpassed canon in two different (DR) colors code. I am wonder how long more canon can keep the royalty ship going. This usually takes both ways to work ... if you think a decade is not a long waiting then I don't know what is.

How long do you think canon want to avoid this by your umbrella Skibum5 must have a good reason to walk out of here, do you think and I thought we are on the same side

Edited on Apr 01, 2015 at 06:03 PM · View previous versions



Apr 01, 2015 at 05:46 PM
Gunzorro
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p.25 #12 · p.25 #12 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


alundeb wrote:
The information and interaction is still here, and was my main attraction to this thread. The OP posted interesting and new data, but was unsure about one part, the black point. I helped him to clarity on that part, improving the accuarcy and reliability of the data. That part was fun for me and him.


I really appreciate that sort of collaborative approach. Thanks!



Apr 01, 2015 at 05:50 PM
jctriguy
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p.25 #13 · p.25 #13 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


mttran wrote:
In Bill's last plot, notice the current purple color (DR) code on almost all canon bodies since 1Ds (2002) while other MFG has already surpassed canon in two different (DR) colors code. I am wonder how long more canon can keep the royalty ship going. This usually takes both ways to work ... if you think a decade is not a long waiting then I don't know what is.

How long do you think canon want to avoid this by your umbrella Skibum5 must have a good reason to walk out of here, do you think and I
...Show more
They will continue on their current path until they feel the investment in new sensor tech will result in an overall positive financial outcome.



Apr 01, 2015 at 06:10 PM
chez
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p.25 #14 · p.25 #14 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


jctriguy wrote:
They will continue on their current path until they feel the investment in new sensor tech will result in an overall positive financial outcome.


Many times companies do things not strictly for financial reasons, but for status or bragging reasons. Surely the 1200mm lens was not designed and manufactured for financial reasons.



Apr 01, 2015 at 06:19 PM
EB-1
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p.25 #15 · p.25 #15 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


ggreene wrote:
There is only one entity that will resolve this dispute and so far Canon has shown little interest in low ISO DR. If that particular feature had a larger market with a bigger impact on sales they might shift their priorities but so far it hasn't been the difference maker for Sony or Nikon as their camera revenues are down as well. Sony's success is with cell phone sensors not camera's. Their own projections show this.

It's not going to happen until Canon thinks that market is a legitimate difference maker and they can recover their costs.

The 5Ds/R are easy decisions
...Show more
mttran wrote:
In Bill's last plot, notice the current purple color (DR) code on almost all canon bodies since 1Ds (2002) while other MFG has already surpassed canon in two different (DR) colors code. I am wonder how long more canon can keep the royalty ship going. This usually takes both ways to work ... if you think a decade is not a long waiting then I don't know what is.

How long do you think canon want to avoid this by your umbrella Skibum5 must have a good reason to walk out of here, do you think and I
...Show more

Isn't Canon still in the top 2 or 3 in cameras overall? I think they have a few years left. I'll buy a couple of the 5DsR as there are no other practical options for my basic needs.
The purple lines are not significant to me. If the 5DsR can produce similar IQ to the 1Ds III and with more MP, then that is good.

EBH




Apr 01, 2015 at 06:23 PM
jctriguy
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p.25 #16 · p.25 #16 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)



chez wrote:
Many times companies do things not strictly for financial reasons, but for status or bragging reasons. Surely the 1200mm lens was not designed and manufactured for financial reasons.


That status or bragging rights are for future financial gain. Canon has lots to brag about, and their sales and market share reflect that. When or if people move away from canon FF cameras in mass numbers because of low ISO DR, they will need to change their approach.

They release a higher MP body for very little additional investment over the current costs for a 5DIII. Makes lots of sense from a business perspective. If people that buy the camera are happy with the DR or view it as a minor feature to give up, then they probably made a wise business decision.



Apr 01, 2015 at 06:54 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.25 #17 · p.25 #17 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


mttran wrote:
Here are some 5Dsr estimated DR from William Claff's site: http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/index.htm


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7633/16995694122_7365d75707_o.jpg

Can you explain first graph? It says shadow DR improvement vs ISO, but why is ideal at zero and D800/D750 also very low. It seems the plot is either arse about or it's shadow DR loss compared to ideal which makes sense. The Nikons are superb and close to ideal and the Canons are very poor and 5Ds while having smooth monotonic curve is no better than 5DII/III

Edited on Apr 01, 2015 at 07:19 PM · View previous versions



Apr 01, 2015 at 07:19 PM
Iliah.Borg
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p.25 #18 · p.25 #18 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


Unfortunately, it is impossible to estimate camera noise by just looking at SNR numbers for raw data. At least one more factor needs to be taken into account - and that factor is the properties of the colour filtration in front of the sensor. That is because the noise is added also through colour transform, including white balance values which are different for different filter packs. It may be the equivalent of up to 1 stop, 0.5 is pretty common difference between different filter pack designs.


Apr 01, 2015 at 07:19 PM
Monito
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p.25 #19 · p.25 #19 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


Welcome to FM, Iliah.Borg.



Apr 01, 2015 at 07:22 PM
ggreene
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p.25 #20 · p.25 #20 · Canon 5DS dynamic range: zero improvement (RAWs analyzed)


mttran wrote:
In Bill's last plot, notice the current purple color (DR) code on almost all canon bodies since 1Ds (2002) while other MFG has already surpassed canon in two different (DR) colors code. I am wonder how long more canon can keep the royalty ship going. This usually takes both ways to work ... if you think a decade is not a long waiting then I don't know what is.


That is also a decade of strong sales for Canon. How many bodies has Nikon thrown at the 5D3 and they still can't surpass it in sales. It's still ahead of the D800/D800E/D810/D750 on Amazon's top selling DSLR's and it's 3 and half years old.

The user base simply does not care about two colors on a sensor chart. They just want good photos and Canon continues to provide them with that. It may not be what we want to hear but forum posters do not make up a sizable percentage of the marketplace.



Apr 01, 2015 at 07:25 PM
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