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Archive 2015 · Best BIF Setup

  
 
ccougar
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Best BIF Setup


Ever since receiving my 400 DO II lens, I have been vacillating back and forth between my 7D2 and a 1DX trying to decide which would make the best hand-held BIF setup. The effective focal length of the 400mm lens when paired with the 7D2 seems ideal at 640mm. The AF system of this camera without an extender is excellent. On the other hand, the 1DX produces better IQ as long as the head size is large enough in the frame. This requires a x1.4 extender which gives an effective focal length of 560mm. I find this a little short, but the low noise level of the 1DX allows a more aggressive crop. I notice a slight reduction of AF performance with the extender but this camera is so fast to begin with, that really doesn’t seem to be a problem.

Today I took both bodies to the harbor but unfortunately the only birds about were gulls and a few pelicans. Attached is an image from each camera. Each is about a 40% crop. No noise reduction, but a slight amount of sharpening has been applied.

Any opinions, suggestions or experience from others who have resolved this issue would be appreciated.











Edited on Mar 14, 2015 at 11:30 AM · View previous versions



Mar 13, 2015 at 02:45 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Best BIF Setup


They both seem in focus, just too much of a crop I suspect.

David



Mar 13, 2015 at 02:50 PM
rattlebonez
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Best BIF Setup


The 1D X no doubt

I use the same combination 1D X / 400mm F4 DO IS II

To me the 7D II always has the small sensor look to the files.
background pattern, noise in the image

I tried a 7D II and hoped it would be different. But I did not find it to be

Art at birdsasart, has been processing his images to clean up the noise and background. He has a document on the 7D II that may be of use to you

Personal preference

It looks like you processed with ACR or Lightroom (maybe not)

I process images using Canon DPP 4.1.5. DPP produces cleaner backgrouds than ACR

Capture One Pro 8 also produces cleaner backgrounds than ACR
very nice output

Or at least that has been my result each comparison test I performed

not trying to upset the Adobe fans; just my opinion; use what you like





Mar 13, 2015 at 02:57 PM
danski0224
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Best BIF Setup


The background noise is much less in the 1DX image even with the ISO higher than the 7DII image. Is that from sharpening or other PP?





Mar 13, 2015 at 03:02 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Best BIF Setup


I have been struggling with similar types of results going back and forth between my 7d2 and 1dx. I was using 300 f/2.8ISII with 1.4TC on 7D2 vs 300+2x on 1DX and sometimes putting the 300+2x on 7d2. Also going between the 600II bare on the 7D2 vs 600+1.4 on 1DX. Most of the time I feel the 1DX does better at tracking and if I have the proper lens with enough "reach" on the 1DX it gives me better looking files at the pixel level. I agree the 1DX can be cropped harder than the 7D2 and its ISO vastly outperforms the 7D2 so you can easily add 1-2 stops of ISO and still come out equal.

That said, I find the 7D2 much better than my 7D for noise pattern and noise in blue sky at low ISO which the 7D was terrible at. Also I love the whole AF and customizable buttons on the 7D2 that pretty much mimic the 1DX settings.

Edited on Mar 13, 2015 at 04:07 PM · View previous versions



Mar 13, 2015 at 03:35 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Best BIF Setup


I go between the 1DX + 1.4x III and 1DIV, usually on my 500/4L IS. My most common two-camera wildlife/BIF setup now is the 1DX + 100-400L IS II and 1DIV + 500/4L IS, plus or minus extenders on the 500.


Mar 13, 2015 at 03:43 PM
Schlotkins
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Best BIF Setup


I have been considering going with a 7d2 and the 400 DO II as well. This thread compared things:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1350433/0?keyword=eagle#12884470

and I think it was pretty clear the 7D2 was giving better files. I'm kind of surprised at the level of noise in the 7D2 shot at 800 as the first shot in the other thread is also at ISO800. In theory, the 1DX has about a 1 stop noise advantage so they should have almost equal noise in your shots.

Chris



Mar 13, 2015 at 03:48 PM
ccougar
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Best BIF Setup


I am starting to agree with my colleagues who feel that a 400mm lens on a 1DX with a x1.4 III extender trumps a 7D2 with the same lens and no extender. Here is an image I hastily captured with my 1DX using a 400 DO II with a x1.4 III extender wide open at f/5.6. This is a straight conversion from RAW with no processing other than what DPP 1.4 applied during the conversion. I’m not sure that my 7D2 could capture an image of this clarity - certainly not at this ISO. With post processing it would come close, but when the head size is equal, nothing beats a full frame sensor. I think a 7D2 is a fine camera, but having both, it is clear that one get something for the difference in price.






Edited on Mar 18, 2015 at 04:56 PM · View previous versions



Mar 14, 2015 at 01:33 AM
EB-1
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Best BIF Setup


I have the same issue and normally prefer the FF body + 1.4x over the 1.6x crop body and no TC. If there is still not enough reach, I usually prefer the 1.6x crop body + 1.4x before the FF body + 2x TC, at least for the f/4 teles.

EBH



Mar 14, 2015 at 02:17 AM
AJay
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Best BIF Setup


If you are mainly photographing birds from a fixed distance between you and the bird, meaning you can't move closer to the subject, the images taken with the 7D Mark II and the 1DX will virtually be indistinguishable. Slight dfferences seen only at 100% pixel peeping and even then, they will be very small.

(I suggest instead of shooting gulls, do a controlled test from a fixed distance...then crop identically in post.)

The advantage of the 1DX is that it is a full-frame sensor and when photographing BIF, you'll have more wiggle room to post-crop later whereas the 7DM2 will be "pre-cropped".

If you plan to use your camera for other subject matter in which you can move closer to your subject, the 1DX would be a better choice for better image quality in low-light situations.

Cropped sensor bodies give the appearance that you are getting better "reach" when in fact all you really are doing is "pre-cropping" your image when compared to a full-frame sensor body such as the 1DX.

My vote actually is for the 5D Mark III. I do not like the extra weight of the 1DX and the shutter is less noisy. Yes, fps is slower but I have not found that to be a "deal-breaker."




Mar 14, 2015 at 08:04 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Best BIF Setup


AJay wrote:
...Cropped sensor bodies give the appearance that you are getting better "reach" when in fact all you really are doing is "pre-cropping" your image when compared to a full-frame sensor body such as the 1DX.


You get "reach" from higher pixel density, which the 7DII has in comparison with the 1DX. You can enjoy the full benefit of "reach" from higher pixel density when the higher-density camera has the same "per pixel" IQ as the lower-density camera, which the 7DII does not in comparison with the 1DX.

... on "reach", https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1327244/2#12664033



Mar 14, 2015 at 08:54 AM
ccougar
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Best BIF Setup


Excellent explanation of "reach," particularly in the referenced URL. Thanks.


Mar 14, 2015 at 10:02 AM
Schlotkins
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Best BIF Setup




jcolwell wrote:
You get "reach" from higher pixel density, which the 7DII has in comparison with the 1DX. You can enjoy the full benefit of "reach" from higher pixel density when the higher-density camera has the same "per pixel" IQ as the lower-density camera, which the 7DII does not in comparison with the 1DX.

... on "reach", https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1327244/2#12664033


Exactly. And the 5ds and 7d2 will have just about the same reach because they have just about the same pixel density.

Chris



Mar 14, 2015 at 10:12 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Best BIF Setup


Schlotkins wrote:
Exactly. And the 5ds and 7d2 will have just about the same reach because they have just about the same pixel density.

Chris


Yes, that's why it would be so nice to have increased fps on the 5DS/SR for continuous shooting in crop mode. Unfortunately, this will not be available.

Edited on Mar 14, 2015 at 02:16 PM · View previous versions



Mar 14, 2015 at 10:18 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Best BIF Setup


jcolwell wrote:
Yes, that's why it would be so nice to have increased fps on the 5DS/SR for continuous shooting in crop mode. Unfortunately, this will not be available. OTOH, the buffer should be pretty "deep" when shooting at 1.6x crops on the 5DS/SR in comparison with shooting FF.


I wouldn't hold your breathe for that outcome. I've read that the crop modes are still saving a full sized RAW file and cropping the in-camera jpeg preview. They then imbed the crop that will show up in DPP already cropped. The crop mode may actually be slower than just shooting RAW. I will try to find where I read this and link to it but I remember it coming from a official source.

EDIT: Here is the official quote from the CPN Canon Europe site:
"The EOS 5DS and EOS 5DS R allow you to choose from three crop options which are shown in the viewfinder to help you to compose – choose either to see these as outlines or as a masked area. JPEG images are captured at the selected crop setting while RAW files are captured full-frame with the crop shown in DPP, allowing for fine adjustment afterwards."
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_the_eos_5ds_and_eos_5ds_r.do and look under In-Camera Creativity section to read it.

This shows why no FPS increase is available (although likely that is down to the new shutter mechanism) as the RAWs are full captured. In LR or ACR the crop might not even show up. Absolutely useless mode unless you shoot jpeg only.



Mar 14, 2015 at 10:32 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Best BIF Setup


OK, thanks Geoff. I think it's pretty stupid to do it that way, but it's always best to know what's actually going on.


Mar 14, 2015 at 01:26 PM
Spikey131
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Best BIF Setup


There is another factor when it comes to "reach", which can be demonstrated with simple math:

1Dx + Canon 600mm lens = $18,000.

7D2 + 100-400mm lens = $4,000

The difference is reach is $12,000, which is beyond the reach of many.



Mar 14, 2015 at 02:46 PM
beanpkk
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Best BIF Setup


Spikey131 wrote:
There is another factor when it comes to "reach", which can be demonstrated with simple math:

1Dx + Canon 600mm lens = $18,000.

7D2 + 100-400mm lens = $4,000

The difference is reach is $12,000, which is beyond the reach of many.


+1 Beyond the reach of most, I would say. And that brings up another question which simple math may not have the ability to answer: Does the slight difference in IQ/background noise/whatever between resulting images with the two camera setups make $12000 worth of difference? It's actually a serious question and not intended as argumentative. Expensive tools should produce better results faster and more easily. The question of whether the difference justifies the cost remains for the individual (and his/her budget) to answer.

My hat's off to the OP -- nice images (!) on either camera.

keith



Mar 14, 2015 at 03:23 PM
rattlebonez
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Best BIF Setup


beanpkk,

Prices from B&H

7D2 + 100+400 lens = 3800 + tax
1699 +2199
result in focal length: 100-400

1DX + 100 + 400 lens + 1.4X III = 8647
5999 + 2199 + 449
result in focal length: 100-400
with 1.4x III TC = 560mm F5.6

A 7D2 only gets 400mm out of a 100-400. It does not magically increase focal length. Only a teleconverter can do that.

As for field of view. Add a 1.4X to a 1D X and you have matched a 7D II field of view (close enough)

I personally would and did choose the 1D X over the 7D II

I am not a believer that cropping a lens to 1.6X (approx 40 % of full frame) results in better images.

Even the 7D II did not impress me for IQ if cropped at all, or viewed at pixel level.



it is a debate that will go on forever. it is personal preference




Mar 17, 2015 at 02:18 PM
Schlotkins
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Best BIF Setup


rattlebonez wrote:
beanpkk,

Prices from B&H

7D2 + 100+400 lens = 3800 + tax
1699 +2199
result in focal length: 100-400

1DX + 100 + 400 lens + 1.4X III = 8647
5999 + 2199 + 449
result in focal length: 100-400
with 1.4x III TC = 560mm F5.6

A 7D2 only gets 400mm out of a 100-400. It does not magically increase focal length. Only a teleconverter can do that.

As for field of view. Add a 1.4X to a 1D X and you have matched a 7D II field of view (close enough)

I personally would and did choose the 1D X over the 7D
...Show more

Not that I am disagreeing with you (I would shoot focal length limited with my 5D3 instead of my 7D), but ultimately the 1.4x costs a stop. The 1DX is probably about a stop better (in terms of noise) than the 7D2 so that helps even things too.





Mar 17, 2015 at 02:32 PM





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