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Archive 2015 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.

  
 
sirimiri
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


Gunzorro wrote:
sirimiri -- Great panorama! Any chance we could see the left side (from the observatory, over east of downtown) enlarged a bit?

Sure, here you go.

Bah, the site re-sized it. I'll PM you a link.








Apr 22, 2015 at 10:45 PM
Chris Fawkes
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


roberto1979 wrote:
Is the 5Ds not the successor to the Mark 3?


No, it is not.



Apr 23, 2015 at 12:12 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


Chris Fawkes wrote:
No, it is not.


I think the answer is a bit more complicated than just "yes" or "no."

My take is that the 5Ds is the next logical development in the 5D series for many photographers who acquire these cameras primarily for their high (at the time of introduction) photo site count full frame sensors, and for doing photography that may benefit from higher sensor resolution. Among the things that are important in a camera for this group, sensor resolution is higher on the list perhaps than a fast AF system, extremely high ISO capability, high speed burst mode shooting, and so forth. (These things may not be completely unimportant, but for these photographers the sensor is the thing.)

The rumored 5DIV, presuming that such a beast ends up with higher ISO capability, an optimized AF system, faster burst mode, etc. may cater more to those who bought into the 5D system for reasons that were weighted in a different direction and for whom even more sensor resolution isn't quite so important as those other things.

So, in a sense, both are successors to the original 5D/5DII/5DIII series, though the series might be seen as being split into two branches in order of focus a bit more on particular users.

For individual photographers, their needs will determine whether one or the other of these might be the best "successor" to a 5D-series body for them. In other words, they might have to answer the question of "which 5D-series camera is the ideal successor for me?" — and there are now possibly going to be at least two answers.

Dan



Apr 23, 2015 at 07:45 AM
retrofocus
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


gdanmitchell wrote:
I think the answer is a bit more complicated than just "yes" or "no."

My take is that the 5Ds is the next logical development in the 5D series for many photographers who acquire these cameras primarily for their high (at the time of introduction) photo site count full frame sensors, and for doing photography that may benefit from higher sensor resolution. Among the things that are important in a camera for this group, sensor resolution is higher on the list perhaps than a fast AF system, extremely high ISO capability, high speed burst mode shooting, and so forth. (These things
...Show more

For once I agree with Dan here. He finally expressed what I said so often before. IMO the 5D MkIII was an outlier in the 5D/5D MkII series since the MkIII did not focus on FF sensor advancement as the earlier camera models of this series did. I also agree with the statement above that the 5D line is now split in two branches - high resolution sensor based 5Ds series and likely the 5D MkIV which is more a pure 5D MkIII successor focusing on higher ISO performance, faster frame rate, and AF capability.

If Canon would have announced in 2012 a camera similar to the 5DsR (even at 36 MP) as oposed to the 5D MkIII, I likely would have never considered looking elsewhere for a camera update. Now the FF sensor market is a very different one compared to three years ago with more options to choose from.



Apr 23, 2015 at 12:55 PM
ggreene
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


retrofocus wrote:
IMO the 5D MkIII was an outlier in the 5D/5D MkII series since the MkIII did not focus on FF sensor advancement as the earlier camera models of this series did.


Where was the outcry for FF sensor advancement during the 5D2's existence? I don't recall there being much. There was a huge amount of grumbling about AF though. Canon had to address it. It was there #1 priority.



Apr 23, 2015 at 01:41 PM
Fast6
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


ggreene wrote:
Where was the outcry for FF sensor advancement during the 5D2's existence? I don't recall there being much. There was a huge amount of grumbling about AF though. Canon had to address it. It was there #1 priority.


Yep, it's a race, and when one area is deficient, you respond (hopefully), and when another area is ahead, you tout your advantage.

I wish I'd never tasted the apple. I used to shoot JPG on a D80 in P mode with kit lenses and never knew I was missing anything



Apr 23, 2015 at 01:47 PM
retrofocus
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


ggreene wrote:
Where was the outcry for FF sensor advancement during the 5D2's existence? I don't recall there being much. There was a huge amount of grumbling about AF though. Canon had to address it. It was there #1 priority.


5D had a 12.8 MP sensor which was then upgraded in the 5D MkII to a 21 MP sensor. This was a big deal since it matched the 1Ds MkIII sensor performance at the time - Canon used still the old 5D AF system in the MkII to distinguish it from the 1Ds series and avoid in-house competition. Well, and you know the rest of the story - many including me were disappointed when the sensor specs of the 5D MkIII were announced.

Canon made IMO two mistakes - crippling the 5D MkII purposely in its AF capability, and then coming up later with the 5D MkIII which should have been the MkII in the first place. The MkIII was just a MkII with improved AF and some other minor improvements. If Canon had addressed the lack of FF sensor technology shortly after the MkIII was released or with a camera in parallel to the MkIII, they wouldn't have lost margin against Nikon and later Sony.



Apr 23, 2015 at 01:56 PM
ggreene
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


retrofocus wrote:
Canon made IMO two mistakes - crippling the 5D MkII purposely in its AF capability, and then coming up later with the 5D MkIII which should have been the MkII in the first place. The MkIII was just a MkII with improved AF and some other minor improvements. If Canon had addressed the lack of FF sensor technology shortly after the MkIII was released or with a camera in parallel to the MkIII, they wouldn't have lost margin against Nikon and later Sony.


I doubt Canon considers the 5D3 a mistake. They have sold a lot of them and it's still on Amazon's best selling DSLR list after 3.5 years. They are praying they can reproduce that kind of success with a 5D4.



Apr 23, 2015 at 02:04 PM
retrofocus
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


ggreene wrote:
I doubt Canon considers the 5D3 a mistake. They have sold a lot of them and it's still on Amazon's best selling DSLR list after 3.5 years. They are praying they can reproduce that kind of success with a 5D4.


The 5D MkII was still the best selling FF camera for Canon. 5D MkIII was sold due to lack of alternative options other than the 6D. And those who were more interested in better sensor performance, nearly all left or added competitive products. In my group of photo buddies the ones who wanted to upgrade to better sensor performance all did not stick with Canon and mostly left to Nikon D800, D810 series or went the A7 route. Only the ones vested in event/wedding/bird photography upgraded to the 5D MkIII and love it for its AF performance.



Apr 23, 2015 at 02:13 PM
ggreene
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


retrofocus wrote:
Only the ones vested in event/wedding/bird photography upgraded to the 5D MkIII and love it for its AF performance.


It's never left the top 20 in DSLR's sales on Amazon and is currently 11th. I think it's a pretty broadly liked camera and bought by many.



Apr 23, 2015 at 03:34 PM
jctriguy
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


retrofocus wrote:
The 5D MkII was still the best selling FF camera for Canon. 5D MkIII was sold due to lack of alternative options other than the 6D. And those who were more interested in better sensor performance, nearly all left or added competitive products. In my group of photo buddies the ones who wanted to upgrade to better sensor performance all did not stick with Canon and mostly left to Nikon D800, D810 series or went the A7 route. Only the ones vested in event/wedding/bird photography upgraded to the 5D MkIII and love it for its AF performance.


Why do you keep pushing this agenda. It isn't supported by any facts. Canon sold a lot of mark II and mark III cameras. They haven't lost market share to Nikon or sony. Mirrorless is basically irrelevant in terms of sales. Your group of buddies is also irrelevant, unless you know 50,000 photographers.




Apr 23, 2015 at 05:09 PM
Paul Mo
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


ggreene wrote:
It's never left the top 20 in DSLR's sales on Amazon and is currently 11th. I think it's a pretty broadly liked camera and bought by many.


They are highly sought after on the used market by people who couldn't/can't afford retail. That trend will grow as a 5D4 emerges and the 5D3 prices drop. I am seeing plenty of used 5D2's around for $800-900.00.

Edited on Apr 24, 2015 at 10:29 AM · View previous versions



Apr 23, 2015 at 08:36 PM
gene A.
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


Since the actual image quality of the 5DIII wasn't much if any improvement over the 5DII I never saw a reason to upgrade. What the announcement of all these new bodies means to me is that I will be able to pick up some used 5DIII bodies for something close to a thousand dollars soon and then I'll upgrade.


Apr 24, 2015 at 09:39 AM
kdphotography
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


What I find ironic is that Canon appears/may be splitting the 5D series in different directions---the 5Ds/r and the 5DIV----while in contrast Canon (sadly) merged the 1D/1Ds series of cameras.

I may be headed back to the 5D series. By the time Canon offers a true upgrade to the 1Ds series, I'll be too old and feeble to hoist that pro body around for a full days work....



Apr 24, 2015 at 10:13 AM
ggreene
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


kdphotography wrote:
What I find ironic is that Canon appears/may be splitting the 5D series in different directions---the 5Ds/r and the 5DIV----while in contrast Canon (sadly) merged the 1D/1Ds series of cameras.


Let's see what the 1DX2 actually looks like first. While the 1DX did not really merge the bodies, the 1DX2 might get a lot closer to that goal. I've said this before but I think Canon unified the 1D series too soon. Should have waited for when a 1D could offer it all.

The 5D4 rumors at 28MP 12FPS seems like it does just that. 1D4 pixel density at FF with 12FPS. Of course, you have to give up the build quality.



Apr 24, 2015 at 01:21 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · 5Ds vs 5D mark 4? I don't get it.


someone wrote:
What I find ironic is that Canon appears/may be splitting the 5D series in different directions---the 5Ds/r and the 5DIV----while in contrast Canon (sadly) merged the 1D/1Ds series of cameras.


I think that the so-called "merging" of the 1-series bodies was largely a marketing phenomenon. Really, the 1Dx is the successor to the 1D models, and not to the 1Ds. I suspect that Canon simply decided that there wasn't sufficient market for what the 1Ds models do/did when the 5D series became available.

I do understand that there are functional difference between the 5D-series bodies and the 1Ds series bodies, but given that a good number of former 1Ds-series body users had moved to the less expensive cameras, I think the writing was on the wall.

Do we think that Canon would actually sell a lot of 50MP 1Ds bodies at $6000-$8000, given the existence of the 5Ds series? I don't.

Dan



Apr 24, 2015 at 01:52 PM
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