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Archive 2015 · Help to identify this lens fault

JohnJ
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Help to identify this lens fault

Just trying to figure out exactly what the fault or damage is here on this lens.

http://www.johnjovic.com/images/temp/IMG_7854_HM90_%20copy.jpg

http://www.johnjovic.com/images/temp/IMG_7873_Kowa90_11%20copy.jpg

http://www.johnjovic.com/images/temp/IMG_8081_CompdL50_f8%20copy.jpg

http://www.johnjovic.com/images/temp/IMG_8078_HM90_f8%20copy.jpg

http://www.johnjovic.com/images/temp/IMG_7881_Kowa90_11%20copy.jpg

http://www.johnjovic.com/images/temp/IMG_7948_Mamiya120A_8_%20copy.jpg

There doesn't appear to be any live or active fungus so I think it might be the damage left behind from fungus that has been cleaned out of the lens. There is damage to the retaining ring on the rear of the lens which in this particular type of lens proves it has been opened, presumably to clean fungus out or similar.

I'm about to send this lens back to an ebay seller who claimed this lens has no faults so I'm unwilling to open the lens to confirm the location of the damage but it is essentially between the two rear groups (ie in the air space between the groups), or possibly even inside one of the groups, ie in the glue itself (but unlikely).

Opinions?

Feb 11, 2015 at 04:46 AM

Jman13
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Help to identify this lens fault

Looks like fungus damage to me. In any case, it's nowhere near no faults.

Feb 11, 2015 at 05:36 AM

ZoneV
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Help to identify this lens fault

Does not look like fungus to me, more like a condensation (salt water?).

Feb 11, 2015 at 06:03 AM

LightShow
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Help to identify this lens fault

Not sure if it can be cleaned, so, +1 nowhere near no faults.

Feb 11, 2015 at 07:07 AM

jcolwell
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Help to identify this lens fault

Not sure what it is. I haven't seen anything quite like it. OTOH, your plan to leave it alone and return it is the right way to go.

Feb 11, 2015 at 07:30 AM

kyelmore
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Help to identify this lens fault

ZoneV wrote:
Does not look like fungus to me, more like a condensation (salt water?).

I second this.

It looks to me like the dried of droplets of water containing salt. The starburst pattern and grainy crystalline looking structures point to this.

Feb 11, 2015 at 10:28 AM

galenapass
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Help to identify this lens fault

kyelmore wrote:
I second this.

It looks to me like the dried of droplets of water containing salt. The starburst pattern and grainy crystalline looking structures point to this.

+1. Send it back!

Feb 11, 2015 at 10:56 AM

dasrocket
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Help to identify this lens fault

As Kyelmore wrote, it looks like a liquid compression spread (when a liquid is squeezed between two surfaces and spreads evenly -we see this in faulty laminated glazing.
If it is, it means the lens was opened up and put back together with some moisture still in it..

..definitely send it back.

Feb 11, 2015 at 11:48 AM

JohnJ
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Help to identify this lens fault

Thanks all for comments and advise.

ZoneV wrote:
Does not look like fungus to me, more like a condensation (salt water?).

Yes, definitely not live fungus. Sadly I have too much experience with fungus and lenses. Just received 2 more yesterday, great...

Can you explain what do you mean about the water/condensation idea or can you link to any examples?

The lens is a fairly simple enlarging lens and this fault looks like it's either in the cement between the 2 rear elements (but unlikely) or inside the air space between the two rear groups (most likely if fungus damage).

dasrocket wrote:
As Kyelmore wrote, it looks like a liquid compression spread (when a liquid is squeezed between two surfaces and spreads evenly -we see this in faulty laminated glazing.
If it is, it means the lens was opened up and put back together with some moisture still in it..

..definitely send it back.

Can this happen with cement used to glue elements?

Edited on Feb 11, 2015 at 02:45 PM · View previous versions

Feb 11, 2015 at 02:23 PM

molson
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Help to identify this lens fault

Definitely fungus. You can clearly see the growth pattern of the colonies.

Feb 11, 2015 at 02:42 PM

dasrocket
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Help to identify this lens fault

JohnJ wrote:
...Can this happen with cement used to glue elements?

Unlikely as this is usually caused by points of liquid, like drops; the effect would not be as such if the glue was spread more evenly.
The pattern looked familiar to me because less viscous liquids tend to create more of a "faning" dry-out, in which the solids move to the edges where surface tension is at its highest. Thicker liquids dry more evenly.

Feb 11, 2015 at 02:59 PM

ZoneV
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Help to identify this lens fault

JohnJ wrote:
Yes, definitely not live fungus. Sadly I have too much experience with fungus and lenses. Just received 2 more yesterday, great...

Can you explain what do you mean about the water/condensation idea or can you link to any examples?

The lens is a fairly simple enlarging lens and this fault looks like it's either in the cement between the 2 rear elements (but unlikely) or inside the air space between the two rear groups (most likely if fungus damage).
...

I suppose that some spray water could enter the lens system, probably at the iris (near the iris I find relativ often more dust than on other lenses). But it could also be some kind of oil part that has gassed out and condensed on a lens nearby, and then dried. Or from a splash from the developer or other baths in the darkroom.

I have cleaned a lot of lenses with fungus, have some lenses with delamination and reparied this few times. Dont looks like such a thing.

Feb 11, 2015 at 05:09 PM

JohnJ
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Help to identify this lens fault

Thanks molson and dasrocket.

ZoneV wrote:
...I suppose that some spray water could enter the lens system, probably at the iris (near the iris I find relativ often more dust than on other lenses). But it could also be some kind of oil part that has gassed out and condensed on a lens nearby, and then dried. Or from a splash from the developer or other baths in the darkroom.

I have cleaned a lot of lenses with fungus, have some lenses with delamination and reparied this few times. Dont looks like such a thing.

Thanks for explaining. However this section of the lens is effectively sealed so it's not possible for the kind of fluid contact you describe. The fault is in the rear cell of the enlarging lens, a sealed assembly with 3 elements, 2 of which are cemented, the other element creates an air space, hence the likelihood of fungus. The fault is certainly inside this sealed assembly, not on the surface exposed to the aperture assembly which may be what you are assuming.

Feb 12, 2015 at 05:55 AM

ZoneV
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Help to identify this lens fault

Sounds strange.

In a sealed part of the lens separation is more likely than such condensation thing.
But from the seperated lenses I have seen I don´t know this kind of appereance up to now.
And I have no idea what else could have caused this kind defect in a sealed lens part. Fungus probably, but for me it does not look like the fungus I know - but there are different forms of fungus.

Feb 12, 2015 at 07:55 AM

JohnJ
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Help to identify this lens fault

ZoneV wrote:
Sounds strange.

In a sealed part of the lens separation is more likely than such condensation thing.
But from the seperated lenses I have seen I don´t know this kind of appereance up to now.
And I have no idea what else could have caused this kind defect in a sealed lens part. Fungus probably, but for me it does not look like the fungus I know - but there are different forms of fungus.

About a year ago I received an enlarging lens which had fungus growing in a vaguely similar pattern to the marks in the lens which is the subject of this post. It was in a similar part of the lens, except in the front cell. See pics below which show the live fungus. I don't think I have any pics of it after it was cleaned, but I don't recall any marks or damage being left in this case.

http://johnjovic.com/images/temp/IMG_3509%201%20copy.jpg

http://johnjovic.com/images/temp/IMG_3509%20copy.jpg

http://johnjovic.com/images/temp/IMG_3788_N63_2F8_F11%20copy.jpg

Feb 12, 2015 at 02:46 PM

ZoneV
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Help to identify this lens fault

Yes, that clearly fungus.
On the current lens with nearly no such "fiber" like structure it looks - for me - more l
like those cristallisation / drying thing from saltwater or such.

But you are right, the new images ressemble the clear fungus images much.
I wonder were I have seen such a structure too. Probably on a lens where I was not clear what it is.

Feb 13, 2015 at 01:46 AM


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