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Archive 2015 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS

  
 
Rajan Parrikar
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p.15 #1 · p.15 #1 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


therealthings wrote:
So you would suggest to get the 5ds and not the r version?


I am getting the 5DS. With the high quality lenses I use, I do not want to risk not having the AA filter.



Mar 09, 2015 at 06:04 PM
juststeve
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p.15 #2 · p.15 #2 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


GDan,

I believe the reason Fuji chose the x-trans photo site color pattern was to eliminate color aliasing without using an optical AA filter. What I am seeing is pretty much the same result as was shown in the Pentax K-5 IIs example, mentioned earlier. Pentax and Oly, and Canon, are using traditional Bayer photo site color patterning, which I am sure you know.

Edited on Mar 09, 2015 at 06:47 PM · View previous versions



Mar 09, 2015 at 06:17 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.15 #3 · p.15 #3 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


juststeve wrote:
GDan,

I believe the reason Fuji chose the x-trans photo site color pattern was to eliminate color aliasing without using an optical AA filter. What I am seeing is pretty much the same result as was shown in the Pentax K-5 IIs example, mentioned earlier. Pentax and Oly, and Canon, are using tradition Bayer photo site color patterning, which I am sure you know.


Good point. For those who may not know, the Fujifilm X-trans sensors use a different photo site pattern.



Mar 09, 2015 at 06:31 PM
AJSJones
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p.15 #4 · p.15 #4 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


All this strong feeling and the thought of trying to undo aliasing by using Gaussian blur made me go get much of the post from POTN. The effect of the 1 pixel AA filter is waaaaaaay less than a 1 pixel Gaussian blur. The loss of detail from the AA filter is actually not much - if you actually see before and after - the pictures below surprised me, especially by how much one can recover, with even simple USM, let alone potential deconvolution algorithms, with a known PSF. If you are not into tech stuff, just look at the pictures to see the effect of a 2x2 AA filter. It's definitely noticeable but not worth "hating" Try it on your own image (one that has not yet been sharpened at all - perhaps one of your favourite brick wall) (Sorry the links below don't work iPad error - the original POTN post has them)

From POTN:

I've been looking for good solid info on AA filters for a long time (rather than speculation based on "This is fuzzy it must have a strong AA" This site shows that the 30D and 5D's AA filters have thicknesses that are proportional to their pixel spacing, consistent with similar "strength" -but no indication of the pixel shift magnitude) Buried on MaxMAx's site is this interesting [B][U]direct look[/U][/B] at the effect of the AA filter on the 5D2, as well as a close-up of the CFA. I recommend a visit to that link, but here are some quotes
[QUOTE] For the Canon 5D II sensor, [B]it appears that they displace the image approximately by one pixel.[/B] The complete OLPF has two layers. These pictures show 1 layer or 1/2 of the blur filter. [B]The 2nd part blurs the image 1 pixel in the vertical direction.[/B] This means that for any one point of light, you end up with 4 points separated by 1 pixel or the same size as one R-G-G-B CFA square. You have 4 points because the 1st layer gives you 2 points, and then the 2nd layer doubles those to 4 points.

Curiously, [B]if the manufacturers wanted to completely eliminate moire, they would have to blur the signal at by a minimum of 3x3 or 9 pixels because of the R-G-G-B color filter array[/B]. In this study, the Canon 5D II has a 2x2 or 4 pixel blur filter. Our guess is that the manufacturer didn't want to blur the image quite that much because of the loss of resolution, so they picked a midpoint to stop some moire and not sacrifice too much resolution. Because of their choice for a 2x2 matrix, [B]you can see color moire patterns on a 5 D MK II[/B] though you won't see it for a monochrome image. [/QUOTE]

Canon's description of their filters shows exactly this AA filter design and it is optimal if it is 1 pixel shift in each direction. The MaxMax picture actually[B] proves[/B] this

Here are a couple of tests I did (OMG) 7 years ago, based on the understanding fron Canon's information. The hummer's eye is original pixels (not scaled, just cropped out of an RGB image). To simulate the AA filter effect I duplicated the layer, set it to 50% , shifted it 1 pixel left and flattened. I then duplicated that "double image", set it to 50%, shifted 1 pixel up and flattened. The result is the middle image. I was suprised how mild the effect was. The next image is the result of Canon's recommended start point to "undo" the AA filter's effect. Not bad, I thought. After that experiment, I stopped worrying that the AA filter was stealing gobs of detail that I could never retrieve. The picture below that is from a trip to Alcatraz (5D, f/9, 1/1000, ISO 640 350mm). I compared the "1 pixel left/one pixel up" AA filter with a 1 pixel radius Gaussian blur - ew yuk, the AA filter ain't so bad.... The USM recovers the lost feather detail quite well.

These days, I still use 300/0.3 for a quicky but for the utmost, I use Topaz "In Focus" to extract the max detail for my landscapes. YMMV As for the 5DS vs R debate, I suspect that much of the time, my overall Airy discs and other blur sources will be close to functioning as my AA filter, and Topaz In focus (or similar based on some component of deconvolution algorithm) will achieve a good result. Seems to work well on my 7D, with similar sized pixels. I await some thorough testing with the cameras when they are finalized.





Mar 09, 2015 at 06:46 PM
Monito
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p.15 #5 · p.15 #5 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


juststeve wrote:
I believe the reason Fuji chose the x-trans photo site color pattern was to eliminate color aliasing without using an optical AA filter. What I am seeing is pretty much the same result as was shown in the Pentax K-5 IIs example, mentioned earlier. Pentax and Oly, and Canon, are using traditional Bayer photo site color patterning, which I am sure you know.


The x-trans color pattern does not eliminate anti-aliasing. It is still a repeating pattern and thus has a sampling rate and thus has aliasing.



Mar 09, 2015 at 08:23 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.15 #6 · p.15 #6 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


Monito wrote:
The x-trans color pattern does not eliminate anti-aliasing. It is still a repeating pattern and thus has a sampling rate and thus has aliasing.


There have been a lot of misconceptions about the Fujifilm system. Some claimed that it was "random" like film grain patterns — it most certainly isn't.

Dan



Mar 09, 2015 at 09:23 PM
darbo
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p.15 #7 · p.15 #7 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


If there is a pattern in the scene that would cause the 5Ds R to produce a moire in the resulting image, are we sure the 5Ds AA filter would eliminate the moire?

I ask, because one of the worst cases of moire I have encountered was distant building louvers captured with the Sony a7 (has an AA filter). Maybe the Sony's AA filter is just too weak?

If the detail "lost" by the AA filter is really minimal, and even somewhat recoverable via sharpening, it starts to make me lean back more to the 5DS. I can't say I have ever been bothered by my 5D III's AA filter, even next to my a7R (no filter).



Mar 09, 2015 at 11:01 PM
AJSJones
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p.15 #8 · p.15 #8 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS




darbo wrote:
If there is a pattern in the scene that would cause the 5Ds R to produce a moire in the resulting image, are we sure the 5Ds AA filter would eliminate the moire?

I ask, because one of the worst cases of moire I have encountered was distant building louvers captured with the Sony a7 (has an AA filter). Maybe the Sony's AA filter is just too weak?

If the detail "lost" by the AA filter is really minimal, and even somewhat recoverable via sharpening, it starts to make me lean back more to the 5DS. I can't say I have
...Show more
If the Sony uses a RGBG array and a 2x2 AA filter lke Canon (and there's no indication they don't) it will not eliminate all moire - a 3x3 AA filter is needed for complete AA control



Mar 10, 2015 at 12:51 AM
therealthings
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p.15 #9 · p.15 #9 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


gdanmitchell wrote:
I certainly would not make such a blanket recommendation. At the moment, and until we have more concrete reports on the cameras, I'd say that given my personal circumstances, I'm on the fence but leaning towards the R version for my own photography.

Yet, as I wrote earlier in this thread, I expect that the real world differences in image quality between the two versions of this 50MP camera are going to be quite small, especially once images are taken through a post-processing workflow optimized for either camera.


If the differences are 'quite small' as you say it, why would Canon bother to release 2 versions. Is that marketing wise only?

gdanmitchell wrote:
If I had to order one today given my use patterns it would be the R model. Here is my thinking. I have friends who are quite serious photographers and who produce and sell very beautiful and large prints who are using the AA-free versions of Nikon FF cameras, including the D810 and the D800a, using very high quality lenses including some adapted from MF cameras — and they are producing wonderful image quality with these cameras. (One began with the D800a and moved to the D810, which he certainly would not have done if he had problem with the lack
...Show more

I have encountered aliassing of fine diagonal lines with my a7r, but have yet to see moiré. These fine lines(e.g. from electical wires) won't do well on large prints, but they only occur if they travel more towards an angle of 45°, probably due to the bayer pattern sensor design and square pixels. Correct me if i'm wrong.






Mar 10, 2015 at 02:35 AM
alundeb
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p.15 #10 · p.15 #10 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


therealthings wrote:
If the differences are 'quite small' as you say it, why would Canon bother to release 2 versions. Is that marketing wise only?



One thing not showing in AJSJones' sharpening example above, is that sharpening also amplifies noise. In his example, the AA filter simulation after capture smooths the noise, so that the sharpened version ends up with about the same noise as the original. In a real AA filtered capture though, the AA filter does not smooth the noise, only the image, so the sharpened version ends up with more noise. The amount of this might be comparable to one stop ISO difference.

Also, if there is exactly enough blur from other factors, like diffraction, to get a perfectly resolved image without aliasing, the addition of AA filter blur will reduce the real resolution with about 10-20%. For the 5Ds this will occur around f/11. That resolution difference is not easily visible, but if you are working to maximize every link in your chain and need to stop down to f/11 to get the required DOF, it is comparable to get a 50 MP camera instead of a 40 MP camera.



Mar 10, 2015 at 03:19 AM
therealthings
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p.15 #11 · p.15 #11 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


alundeb wrote:
One thing not showing in AJSJones' sharpening example above, is that sharpening also amplifies noise. In his example, the AA filter simulation after capture smooths the noise, so that the sharpened version ends up with about the same noise as the original. In a real AA filtered capture though, the AA filter does not smooth the noise, only the image, so the sharpened version ends up with more noise. The amount of this might be comparable to one stop ISO difference.

Also, if there is exactly enough blur from other factors, like diffraction, to get a perfectly resolved image without aliasing,
...Show more

So if that's correct, my previous assumption a few pages back was not that wrong; that if you use an AA-less camera and shoot more stopped down (like i usually do with my *scapes between F8 - F11 on my 24 TS-E II) allowing for a little diffraction it reduces the chance of aliassing and moiré.

We also discussed that shooting more opened up allows for capturing more sensor resolution and thus more detail in an image, but having watched Fred's images with the TS-E 24II closely i almost see every image being shot stopped down to atleast F8, and not at F5.6 like others stated in this forum to be the absolute best for this lens. Does that mean, that if he shot at F5.6 and applied tilt properly he could have captured more detail? Can anyone please clarify?



Mar 10, 2015 at 03:32 AM
alundeb
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p.15 #12 · p.15 #12 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


therealthings wrote:
Does that mean, that if he shot at F5.6 and applied tilt properly he could have captured more detail? Can anyone please clarify?


Shooting at f/5.6 with a good lens on AA-less 36 MP is into the territory of aliased detail. For non-reguar subject detail it will look sharper, but the detail shown will still have a great probabability of not being an accurate representation of reality. This is the core of the disagreement between the two camps of preferences. Do we want detail that looks sharp but is not accurate?



Mar 10, 2015 at 03:39 AM
therealthings
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p.15 #13 · p.15 #13 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


alundeb wrote:
Shooting at f/5.6 with a good lens on AA-less 36 MP is into the territory of aliased detail. For non-reguar subject detail it will look sharper, but the detail shown will still have a great probabability of not being an accurate representation of reality. This is the core of the disagreement between the two camps of preferences. Do we want detail that looks sharp but is not accurate?


I do not want/need my image to be an exact representation of what was there. That's why i pp my images to show my own perspective. Is that pleasing to everyone, i know it is not. Just like art is not appreciated by everyone the same way, and that is why some prefer to drive their cars bone stock original and others like to fit in a larger air intake, a stainless steel exhaust and drop on some nice wheels and get an all leather interior.

But what i don't want is that these 'false' details reveal nasty jaggies on fine lines that does not look like the detail it should represent making it look like something has gone wrong with the image. So 'false' detail, yes, but till the point that it still 'looks' credible.



Mar 10, 2015 at 03:57 AM
alundeb
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p.15 #14 · p.15 #14 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


therealthings wrote:
But what i don't want is that these 'false' details reveal nasty jaggies on fine lines that does not look like the detail it should represent making it look like something has gone wrong with the image. So 'false' detail, yes, but till the point that it still 'looks' credible.


In that case it comes down to:

- what type of subjects you shoot,
- if you are able to check your images immediately after capture,
- if you can change the frequency of the detail by zooming or moving,
- If you have enough light or can tolerate increased DOF by stopping down to f/8 or more,
- If you are prepared to lose even more detail in post fixup in the few cases it goes wrong,
- What level of insurance you need, what are the consequences of a ruined image?



Mar 10, 2015 at 04:18 AM
dhphoto
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p.15 #15 · p.15 #15 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


alundeb wrote:
In that case it comes down to:

- what type of subjects you shoot,
- if you are able to check your images immediately after capture,
- if you can change the frequency of the detail by zooming or moving,
- If you have enough light or can tolerate increased DOF by stopping down to f/8 or more,
- If you are prepared to lose even more detail in post fixup in the few cases it goes wrong,
- What level of insurance you need, what are the consequences of a ruined image?


I am not yet convinced that I need an upgrade to 50 meg, even though my stuff is often printed huge I've never struggled for resolution.

The problem I have is that a lot of the work I do is industrial, which inevitably includes grids, screens and the like and I'm concerned if I go for the SR I will end up with moire which I can't fix and worse still I might not notice umtil I've left the location.

I occasionally get moire now with my 1Ds3 and 5D3 but the LR anti-moire controls do a very good job, but I expect it would be must worse on the SR



Mar 10, 2015 at 05:18 AM
alundeb
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p.15 #16 · p.15 #16 · Which Canon 5DR or 5DS


dhphoto wrote:
I am not yet convinced that I need an upgrade to 50 meg, even though my stuff is often printed huge I've never struggled for resolution.

The problem I have is that a lot of the work I do is industrial, which inevitably includes grids, screens and the like and I'm concerned if I go for the SR I will end up with moire which I can't fix and worse still I might not notice umtil I've left the location.

I occasionally get moire now with my 1Ds3 and 5D3 but the LR anti-moire controls do a very good job, but I
...Show more

The 5Ds will be the highest resolution camera available with an AA filter, and probably the most aliasing immune camera whatever the resolution. No medium format camera or digital back I am aware of features AA filters. And among cameras with 2x2 pixels AA filtering the highest resolution will get most help from diffraction and move the safe detail frequency upwards. Even if you don't need the resolution, it will help to upgrade to the 5Ds only to reduce the probability of aliasing.



Mar 10, 2015 at 06:50 AM
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