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Archive 2015 · Honest question about camera colors

  
 
galenapass
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Honest question about camera colors


I am a little baffled. I often see posts about camera x's colors vs. camera y's colors. For example, this was just posted on another forum.

"I loved shooting the D800e and miss the resolution and DR but not the greens and yellows. Canon colors are what made me switch from Nikon last year."

Years ago, I had a Nikon D200, then bought a Canon 20D. I loved the colors coming out of the D200 but soon discovered that with a little bit of RAW manipulation, I could make the 20D files look exactly like the D200 files. For a long time after that, and over the course of many cameras (D700, D2x, D600, 1DII, 1DIII, 1DIV, 1Ds II....I have been a long time dual system user), I have always found that the RAW files from these cameras could more or less be made to look like whatever one desires. Granted, if one is shooting with a Foveon sensor, there can be a color output difference. So I am not talking about color differences between fundamentally different sensors - eg Bayer vs. Foveon. But, are the color differences from Canikon Bayer sensors really there - or just imagined, or perceived mostly from those that shoot JPEG?



Feb 06, 2015 at 01:34 AM
Taylor Sherman
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Honest question about camera colors


Probably both, but there is a definite real aspect. The process of using a color filter array, then using de-mosaic algorithms to create a single "color" pixel, is lossy. In other words, it's not simply a weird way of taking apart the light that comes in then putting it back together in an intact way. It's possible to do it in ways that mean some colors will never be accurate, for instance (or at least you would have to guess which of two or more possible resultant colors was the actual one, but the RAW converter can't do that).

It depends on the frequency centers, frequency width, and transmissivity (relative to the other color elements) in the CFA.




Feb 06, 2015 at 01:44 AM
rattymouse
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Honest question about camera colors


galenapass wrote:
I am a little baffled. I often see posts about camera x's colors vs. camera y's colors. For example, this was just posted on another forum.

"I loved shooting the D800e and miss the resolution and DR but not the greens and yellows. Canon colors are what made me switch from Nikon last year."

Years ago, I had a Nikon D200, then bought a Canon 20D. I loved the colors coming out of the D200 but soon discovered that with a little bit of RAW manipulation, I could make the 20D files look exactly like the D200 files. For a long time
...Show more

It's my opinion that any differences in senors can be overcome with software. I'll use Fujifilm for an example since I'm quite familiar with their cameras. Previous to going over to Fuji, I shot with a Canon DSLR. I loved the resolution and even the color. That all changed once I saw my first set of pics from Fuji's SLR's. The colors were incredible. I cant define what it is about the colors, but the difference was clear as day to me. However, I was a Canon shooter with 4 L lenses. I was not going to move over to Fuji.

After awhile I picked up a small Fuji compact, the F10. Wow! Again the colors were awesome. The sensor between the S5 Pro and F10 was totally different, yet the colors were clearly of the same family. Still committed to Canon I picked up a few more compacts as the years went on and then finally broke down and got the S5 Pro. I was in color heaven. Sadly, I joined a dying breed as Fujifilm walked away from their customer base and did not produce any more SLR's. A lot of people were left unhappy with that.

It took a few years but Fujifilm came back to serious cameras with the X100. Again a totally different sensor, but colors from the same family.

So with regards to Fuji, it didnt matter if the sensor was SuperCCD HR, SuperCCD SR II, SuperCCD EXR, or CMOS. They all had the same colors. Software made the difference.

Surely Canon and Nikon have different approaches to color with their own software. This is why people have certain preferences for one brand over the other.

You are correct that a RAW image can probably be made to duplicate another brand. In practice I think this is much harder than it sounds and is not worth the effort.







Feb 06, 2015 at 01:55 AM
aman74
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Honest question about camera colors


^^^^

I'm confused, at first you say software can overcome the differences, then go on to state that it would be very difficult to do with RAW files...

So you're saying the similarities between Fuji models were only with jpegs and the software applied by the manufacturer, yet the most powerful software available for RAW files can't do the same? Is a jpeg not merely a RAW file with presets applied?



Feb 06, 2015 at 02:35 AM
rattymouse
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Honest question about camera colors


aman74 wrote:
^^^^

I'm confused, at first you say software can overcome the differences, then go on to state that it would be very difficult to do with RAW files...

So you're saying the similarities between Fuji models were only with jpegs and the software applied by the manufacturer, yet the most powerful software available for RAW files can't do the same? Is a jpeg not merely a RAW file with presets applied?


Sorry for the confusion. I mean in-camera software, the JPEG engines of each camera. This software is what defines the colors of each particular brand.

If you shoot RAW, then you could theoretically use Adobe Camera RAW or some other converter and try to duplicate the JPEG engine of your favorite brand, but I think this is VERY hard to do with 100% accuracy. The number of adjustments needed makes this a very complex task.

I hope this is more clear.






Feb 06, 2015 at 02:56 AM
adamdewilde
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Honest question about camera colors


aman74 wrote:
^^^^

I'm confused, at first you say software can overcome the differences, then go on to state that it would be very difficult to do with RAW files...

So you're saying the similarities between Fuji models were only with jpegs and the software applied by the manufacturer, yet the most powerful software available for RAW files can't do the same? Is a jpeg not merely a RAW file with presets applied?


I think rattymouse means to say that you can overcome the color differences in RAW (not JPG). But is it worth doing? Isn't it easier to just pickup the camera that has colors you like and work with it, rather then constantly having to edit the colors all the time. His statement seemed pretty clear to me, and if that is in fact what he meant, I'd have to agree with him.

I've been able to get MOST sensors to match, but the degree of difficultly I have in doing so, isn't worth it. Unless say you have to use a specific lens for something, but you want the colors to match a camera the lens doesn't support.

----


Back to the OPs question. You're not crazy, there are a lot of factors that determine the final RAW file or JPG file that your computer downloads from your memory card. My suggestion would be to buy what you love.. And it'll all fall into place later



Feb 06, 2015 at 02:59 AM
justruss
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Honest question about camera colors


Galena, there was a thread about this some months ago where I posted X-E1 and 5D2 files of similar subjects (same subject, but not identical framing), both taken with RAW, and both processed for about ~30 seconds on my end-- to show that i) OOC RAW (via standard conversion) or JPG definitely looks different from camera to camera, and ii) you can bring images from different sensors very close with very little work. If you remember, or can dig up that thread, you might find it interesting since I posted a few rounds of examples.

To get identical images, color wise, from different sensors is like most things: a LOT of work for that last tiny amount.

Then there are lenses. Indeed, lenses impact color as well. (So do focal lengths, to an extent, in that our perception of color relationships change depending on what the composition includes!)




Feb 06, 2015 at 03:10 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Honest question about camera colors


I'm with Adam on this. Life is too short and I would rather spend my time shooting.

Each manufacturer has its own color philosophy, and it is primarily achieved by the density and hues of the CFA, and partially by the demosaicing algorithms in the raw converter. "Adobe Standard" profile is adobe's attempt at making all cameras produce the same color, and judging from that profile, I would say it's not really successful. Besides I really like the specific colors of some camera makers, and would invest in their products instead of trying to make files from another manufacturer look similar.



Feb 06, 2015 at 03:32 AM
Mescalamba
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Honest question about camera colors


"Fixing colors" after what certain CFA's do with them is sometimes impossible. There are cameras that simply cant produce good colors. With insane amount of trying, they can be persuaded to "nice colors", but thats all.. but usually not even that.

Today motto is "give em few bits and even less colors". At least it seems that way sometimes..

About Fuji making most of their output look "Fuji like" is true. Tho X100 has pretty wierd and hard to manage colors for example.. but lets say X-A1? Very nice..


Colors can be fixed to certain degree with color profiles of various kind. Problem is, that it cant fix color errors (maybe only if you shoot always color checker table), it just shift colors.. Also it wont make colors richer.. either there are color data, or there arent.



Feb 06, 2015 at 04:22 AM
LightShow
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Honest question about camera colors


Many have succeeded at better colors by profiling their camera which gets all their cameras to the same place.


Feb 06, 2015 at 04:33 AM
Beni
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Honest question about camera colors


Added to the manufacturers CFA colour choices, certain cameras are going to be far better at representing subtle changes in colours. We build ICC colour profiles for all our lenses never mind cameras in our repro studio, what you cannot do even with the 140 patches of our Digital SG Colorchecker chart, is describe 16 million colours and the tonal transitions with perfect accuracy. Some cameras and some lenses are better than others. Our MFDB for example is far better with subtle highlight colour tones than our D800e even after both are fully profiled with ICC profiles and using the same lens.

I don't need to get facial tones right with my A7r, they are correct out of the box. The D700 was even better. I could get ok out of my 5D and never could get it right with my 5D3. Someone else would disagree, it is very subjective once you are out of the realm of having to achieve accuracy, something that can be measured.



Feb 06, 2015 at 04:43 AM
millsart
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Honest question about camera colors


I find that if the colors don't look right straight away I just convert to B&W and move on. Problem solved, regardless of brand


Feb 06, 2015 at 12:25 PM
BokehBeauty
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Honest question about camera colors


If the spectral separation between red, green and blue channels is weak, like it seems to be the case with recent Canon CFA than it will be mathematically quite difficult to get accurate red tone separation. This corresponds to my Canon 5D MkII experience. If I remember right, the DXO guys measured this weakness some years ago.


Feb 06, 2015 at 08:20 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Honest question about camera colors


I'd guess much of what you'll come across on forums is based on subjective evaluation. Someone simply likes one thing better than the other, because they do. Who is to argue with that? It might be factually incorrect, but as Beni says, it's someone's preferences.

Just go over to the Leica User Forum and check in on the M9 CCD vs. M Typ240 CMOS debate....

Visiting DxO... the M9's CCD scores a dismal 69 (22.5 bits color, 11.7 EV DR), for which any Canon would get ripped, while the M240 rates an 84 (24, 13.3), or barely respectable. The M240 should be the preferred camera by everyone, right? Wrong!!

FWIW, I can get the M9 and M240 files to look pretty close with reasonably little work. But as mentioned, that last bit of difference is going to be a lot more time consuming. So, if someone likes a certain look, and their camera of choice provides it, why fight it?



Feb 06, 2015 at 09:05 PM
galenapass
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Honest question about camera colors


I would argue that switching systems, which is a huge hassle, costs (time and money) far more than a little effort in LR to set up the right color profile to get what you want. Yet, we all see posts like this. "I switched from brand x to brand y because the greens or reds were not to my liking". Really? To me this just reads.."I am inept at processing so I had to spend a lot of cash and time to buy and sell equipment".


Feb 06, 2015 at 10:17 PM
BbICEP
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Honest question about camera colors


Beni wroteI could get ok out of my 5D and never could get it right with my 5D3.
Same experience here. I didn't play with 5D files though, but what I had with 5D3 was underwhelming color-wise in comparison with my NEX-5n.




Feb 06, 2015 at 10:50 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Honest question about camera colors




galenapass wrote:
I would argue that switching systems, which is a huge hassle, costs (time and money) far more than a little effort in LR to set up the right color profile to get what you want. Yet, we all see posts like this. "I switched from brand x to brand y because the greens or reds were not to my liking". Really? To me this just reads.."I am inept at processing so I had to spend a lot of cash and time to buy and sell equipment".


I don't think anyone switches brands just for the color. There are many other considerations, and color is just one out of many.



Feb 06, 2015 at 11:22 PM
rattymouse
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Honest question about camera colors


edwardkaraa wrote:
I don't think anyone switches brands just for the color. There are many other considerations, and color is just one out of many.


Sorry Edward, but I changed over to Fuji solely for the colors.



Feb 07, 2015 at 12:02 AM
rattymouse
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Honest question about camera colors


galenapass wrote:
I would argue that switching systems, which is a huge hassle, costs (time and money) far more than a little effort in LR to set up the right color profile to get what you want. Yet, we all see posts like this. "I switched from brand x to brand y because the greens or reds were not to my liking". Really? To me this just reads.."I am inept at processing so I had to spend a lot of cash and time to buy and sell equipment".


You assume that one simple profile works for every image or even most images. I see no reason at all to believe this to be true.




Feb 07, 2015 at 12:03 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Honest question about camera colors


rattymouse wrote:
Sorry Edward, but I changed over to Fuji solely for the colors.


Haha, well if I switch to Fuji, it would be for the color, small size, retro look, outstanding lenses, reasonable prices... etc. In fact, I will add a Fuji to my line up as soon as they make a FF.

Edited on Feb 07, 2015 at 02:09 AM · View previous versions



Feb 07, 2015 at 12:09 AM
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