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Archive 2015 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?

  
 
shirozina
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Canon rumoured to have a 50mp around the corner and with an A7rII or A9 with a >36mp sensor a good guess then what does this mean. A diffraction limit at <F8 will have an impact on Landscape shooters for a start. DOF won't be great enough to cover foreground to infinity even on quite wide lenses and stopping down to the F11 that may have helped before may well drop real resolution to 20-30mp levels. Also many lenses don't 'straighten out' there edge and corner softness until >F8. If we get >14 stops of DR maybe we can put up with the extra but mostly redundant MP's


Jan 31, 2015 at 03:07 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Well, on the depth of field issues, I think tilt shift lenses will be used more and more for landscapes as one way to handle that issue, and Canon certainly has some good wide ones. I think that there is little question that a 50mp sensor will test the limits of a lot of lenses.


Jan 31, 2015 at 03:18 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


I already see a noticeable diffraction loss past F8 on the A7r. Resolution wise, 50MP is not that huge a jump over 36MP's though at 18%.

As far as the sensor and practical issues, a lot will be determined by what Canon has come up with. Will there be parity with Sony with regard to DR for instance? Then there is the inherent drawback of using MF lenses handheld without the benefit of an EVF. I see that as the largest drawback for alt lens use off the tripod (and yes I very often shoot my A7r handheld and enjoy pixel level sharpness).



Jan 31, 2015 at 03:25 PM
millsart
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


I switched to the A7 and A7s over my A7r largely because I often found even the 36meg sensor revealed a lot of issues with my handholding technique, which was my most used means of shooting.

Unless one shoots with a solid tripod I found it hard to take full advantage of the A7r resolution, in the end, switching to the A7 for its EFS, PDAF etc

I can only imagine how demanding a 50meg sensor will be, assuming the glass is up to it.

Its obviously going to be a great tool for serious landscape work, but I don't know if a lot of shooters really will see any real gains from it.

I think it will be about 95% bragging rights of having 50megs, but maybe only 5% seeing real world improvements in IQ for those that make very large prints (which I certainly haven't done once in the past year)



Jan 31, 2015 at 03:38 PM
galenapass
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Wouldn't sensor shifting - as employed by the new EM5II - get around some of these issues? Bearing in mind, of course, that one would be limited to tripod use.


Jan 31, 2015 at 03:41 PM
millsart
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


galenapass wrote:
Wouldn't sensor shifting - as employed by the new EM5II - get around some of these issues? Bearing in mind, of course, that one would be limited to tripod use.


Sensor shifting will take multiple frames, even if in quick order, and likely will show issues with foliage, waves etc. Probably fast enough moving clouds won't be an issue, but less static stuff won't work well, based on my experience with PhotoAcute, which uses a multi image stacking method.

Didn't see any improvement in resolution in trees et al, but it did work well for static stuff, like the texture of a wooden fence.



Jan 31, 2015 at 03:56 PM
shirozina
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


>F8 on my A7r is indeed the area where the edge goes off the definition of fine detail. If I go higher with either Sony or Canon I think my 24mm TS-EII will hold up well but the 17mm TS-E is already struggling. It has that mid zone dip which is evident on the MTF graphs and on images. My Hassleblad 50mm CFLE (on a shift adapter) has been OK but F11 overall better than F8. I've avoided the old 45mm TS-E as it has a bad rep even on 21mp and there have been rumours for years about an upgrade.
I think DR will the be the decider between a Canon or Sony 50mp sensor for me - more resolution could just make things complicated......



Jan 31, 2015 at 04:07 PM
EL_PIC
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


FYI ... Several years ago while visiting B&H NYC ..
the Canon rep assigned there stated that practical limits of
the Pixel race were about 25MB for a full frame DSLR.
He stated several reasons for this - but I remember Glass being high on the list.

He did not state what the practical Pixel limits were for DSLR sales ..



Jan 31, 2015 at 04:15 PM
shirozina
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


EL_PIC wrote:
He did not state what the practical Pixel limits were for DSLR sales ..






Jan 31, 2015 at 04:27 PM
Sr.Cordeiro
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Funny, I was thinking on making a similar post here on Alt Fm forum.
I agree that a IBIS system would make this high MP sensors more user-frendly. I hope manufacturers will realise that need, maybe Sony already did seeing the A7II.

What I'm really wondering is if this high-density sensors could mean the end of our joy: using old manual lenses on digital bodies. Can the majority of old glass provide enough resolution to such demanding sensors?

I remember some years ago Olympus claimed their new and "designed for digital" four-thirds lenses should be able to deliver enough resolution to sensors up to 20mp. I know this is for a sensor half of the size of a 35mm "full-frame", but still...



Jan 31, 2015 at 04:42 PM
millsart
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Sr.Cordeiro wrote:
Funny, I was thinking on making a similar post here on Alt Fm forum.
I agree that a IBIS system would make this high MP sensors more user-frendly. I hope manufacturers will realise that need, maybe Sony already did seeing the A7II.

What I'm really wondering is if this high-density sensors could mean the end of our joy: using old manual lenses on digital bodies. Can the majority of old glass provide enough resolution to such demanding sensors?

I remember some years ago Olympus claimed their new and "designed for digital" four-thirds lenses should be able to deliver enough resolution to sensors up
...Show more


I think most users who like older MF glass do it because the enjoy the MF feel and experience, and the unique ways the lenses render, not for absolute resolution.

My modern Sony AF 55/1.8 FE is way sharper than a lot of my other 50's, but it doesn't match the unique way of rendering a lens like the Rokkor 58/1.2.

Generally speaking, if you want maximum resolution, across the frame sharpness etc, modern glass is the way to go.



Jan 31, 2015 at 04:54 PM
Sr.Cordeiro
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?




millsart wrote:
I think most users who like older MF glass do it because the enjoy the MF feel and experience, and the unique ways the lenses render, not for absolute resolution.


I agree with the lens character aegument, but until recemtly the sharpness was a dactor too. When I was building my Canon 5D MkII syattem I opted for legacy glass for this reason. The zuiko 24mm is a good exampçe of this, I had one for it's resolution on a 21mp sensor, but I have doubts regarding it's performance on a 50mp chip. Lets not forguet also the "bang for the buck" factor with old glass.



Jan 31, 2015 at 05:12 PM
shirozina
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Sr.Cordeiro wrote:
I agree with the lens character aegument, but until recemtly the sharpness was a dactor too. When I was building my Canon 5D MkII syattem I opted for legacy glass for this reason. The zuiko 24mm is a good exampçe of this, I had one for it's resolution on a 21mp sensor, but I have doubts regarding it's performance on a 50mp chip. Lets not forguet also the "bang for the buck" factor with old glass.

The OL 24mm 2.8 does indeed struggle with the 36mp of the A7r - on the other hand the OL28mm 3.5 holds it's own quite comfortably which is curious as it was only so-so on the 5D2.




Jan 31, 2015 at 05:26 PM
Mescalamba
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Problems? Yea a lot of them..

In case someone wants full 50 mpix potential, sensor and lens mount (and lenses) needs to be perfectly aligned, which is issue even with 36 mpix sensor. It wont get better.

Diffraction limit will be very low, around f4,5 or so.

On other hand, if you simply forget its 50 mpix and downsize all pics to lets say 36, its should get rather nice results. Or halve it, 25 very good mpix? Why not..

Also storing full sizes will be space demanding. Not mentioning that processing 50 mpix file isnt for cheap PCs/MACs.


Im not worring much about sensor, cause it must be new tech (65nm or 90nm.. cant be bigger). Should be okay. Tho I wonder if Canon will create for once again good CFA or not..

Edited on Jan 31, 2015 at 06:20 PM · View previous versions



Jan 31, 2015 at 05:56 PM
shirozina
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Mescalamba wrote:
Diffraction limit will be very low, around f4,5 or so.



Lower than F8 but not that low.




Jan 31, 2015 at 06:09 PM
AndereObjektiv
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Just some quick off the cuff calculations to find a rough idea of where this will go, so let's guesstimate.

With a total number of 53M pixels, a hypothetical breakdown of imaginary specs might be:

8432 x 6284 total pixels on a 36x24mm sensor, with a pixel pitch of 4.27µm.

That gives us a Spatial Resolution of 130.91 lp/mm and 3142 lp/ph. This is where the best APS-C sensors (a6000, NX-1, D3200) reached only in the last few years. I don't know of any Full Frame or Medium Format commercially available sensors that have this resolution.

With a (guestimated) 4.27µm pixel and yellow-green light at 0.565µm the Diffraction Limited Aperture will be around F/6.19, not as low as the APS-Cs, but lower than the D810 at F/7.

Actual numbers will probably be 95% of above due to 50.6MP output, but still very, very impressive.

The 5DS R will give the Zeiss Otus a good workout, that's for sure.

Now let's hope for 16 Bit Raw files and 15 stops of DR.



Jan 31, 2015 at 06:19 PM
Mescalamba
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Supposedly its 14-bit output with 16-bit read-out or something like that.. DR will be classic Canon, dont hold breath for that..


Jan 31, 2015 at 06:22 PM
Phillip Reeve
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Have a look at this article: https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2012/08/the-diffraction-limit-how-small-is-too-small/

The conclusion there is that a sharpened 50MP image at f/22 will have more resolution than a 36MP image at f/5.6.

I think many of my manual lenses will struggle with 50MP, but they won't perform any worse than on my 24Mp sensor and so far I don't need 24MP.



Jan 31, 2015 at 06:31 PM
shirozina
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?


Presumably after all this time Canon have been working on significantly ramping up the DR as well as the resolution.........I mean what else have they been doing while the D800 and A7r have been stealing their sales?


Jan 31, 2015 at 06:34 PM
chez
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 50mp sensors - practical issues for shooters?




shirozina wrote:
Presumably after all this time Canon have been working on significantly ramping up the DR as well as the resolution.........I mean what else have they been doing while the D800 and A7r have been stealing their sales?


Trying desperately to convince you that 20mpix is all you will ever need...and it has worked as we see a lot of converted parrots echoing just this.



Jan 31, 2015 at 07:04 PM
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