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Archive 2015 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?

  
 
jim allison
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


It seems the Canon features dual processors in some of their advanced models. Why doesn't Nikon-just curious if anyone knows why?


Jan 30, 2015 at 04:49 PM
VictorSk
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


Two different approaches. Nikon focuses on one single and powerful PU whether Canon goes for two but less powerful. I'm pretty sure there are also architecture differences between both and the way they process data.


Jan 30, 2015 at 04:53 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


jim allison wrote:
It seems the Canon features dual processors in some of their advanced models. Why doesn't Nikon-just curious if anyone knows why?


It's not about the number of processors, but whether or not the aggregate performance (accounting for losses that accompany the splitting of workloads) is up to par for the intended use.

So far, I haven't seen cameras that really suffer from slow processors; short buffers due to including less memory, and slower storage interface controllers seem to be a larger problem.

And specifically in Canon's case, they've likely architected their operating system/firmware to better handle splitting workloads around, which allows them to use multiple current generation processors for new, higher-end products, instead of having to foot the bill for a new processor design as well. Also, they tend to use the same basic processors across their product range, from their compact P&S cameras all the way up to their professional 1D-series.



Jan 30, 2015 at 05:34 PM
morris
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


The question I keep asking is why they don't write to alternate cards to avoid filling the buffer. That is very old technology.

Morris



Jan 30, 2015 at 06:21 PM
ffstory
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


morris wrote:
The question I keep asking is why they don't write to alternate cards to avoid filling the buffer. That is very old technology.

Morris


They would need two write ports to the buffer, two controllers, etc. That would make the architecture more complex.

Having bigger buffer and faster card protocol is much more efficient.



Jan 30, 2015 at 07:24 PM
jim allison
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


As usual,this is the place to go for answers!Thanks folks. Jim


Jan 30, 2015 at 08:10 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


ffstory wrote:
They would need two write ports to the buffer, two controllers, etc. That would make the architecture more complex.

Having bigger buffer and faster card protocol is much more efficient.


Cameras likely already have the architecture for this, as it's needed for parallel writing of RAW+JPEG configuration between the two card slots. I discussed an idea for an implementation here - several others had thought of it before me.



Jan 30, 2015 at 08:42 PM
hans98ko
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


Simple answer to your question.
A single processor with duo core is equivalent to 2 processors with single core. A single oct core processor is as powerful as 8 single core processors.
And then a 2GHz processor will run twice as fast as a 1GHz processor.
Next is the bandwidth used by the processors, a 32-bit can handle 4 times as much information as a 8-bit processor. Follow by the number of input/output ports or the number of channels that it can handle simultaneously all makes a difference.
So unless we knew all these, a single processor does not mean less processing power.



Jan 30, 2015 at 09:19 PM
kpc011895
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


The answer is simply because it's an architecture choice by nikon. They all implement ASIC (application specific integrated circuits) designs that are optimized for their specific setup. Exact reasonings behind nikon and canon's differences in chips used are mainly because of other engineering decisions that were made. Canon would probably see an improvement if they had everything on the same die with interconnects in the IC (once you go off chip you lose a lot of speed), however this would require a cost in developing this new chip. So it's a cost benefit analysis on canon and nikon's end to see where bottlenecks in the system are and if they are worth addressing.


Jan 30, 2015 at 09:54 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


morris wrote:
The question I keep asking is why they don't write to alternate cards to avoid filling the buffer. That is very old technology.

Morris

ffstory wrote:
They would need two write ports to the buffer, two controllers, etc. That would make the architecture more complex.

Having bigger buffer and faster card protocol is much more efficient.

snapsy wrote:
Cameras likely already have the architecture for this, as it's needed for parallel writing of RAW+JPEG configuration between the two card slots. I discussed an idea for an implementation here - several others had thought of it before me.


I've been wanting that as a option for 10+ years, but nobody seems interested.
Also, by writing odds/evens to different cards at 10-12 FPS one often would have enough similar images without having to write all the same data to both cards.

EBH



Jan 30, 2015 at 11:25 PM
Chris Court
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


Perhaps a partial answer to the OP's question here: http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/milbeaut-and-expeed.html

C



Jan 30, 2015 at 11:41 PM
ffstory
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


snapsy wrote:
Cameras likely already have the architecture for this, as it's needed for parallel writing of RAW+JPEG configuration between the two card slots. I discussed an idea for an implementation .


Unfortunately they don't. JPEG+RAW mode just multiplexes the same writing port to SDIO controllers. The overall throughput is actually slower than writing to one card.

Alternate RAW capture to two cards would be a great redundancy option though. But performance wise it will be slower.

Edited on Jan 31, 2015 at 12:26 PM · View previous versions



Jan 31, 2015 at 12:16 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


ffstory wrote:
Unfortunately they don't. JPEG+RAW mode just multiplexes the same writing port to SDIO controllers. The overall throughput is actually slower than writing to one card.


Interesting. Can you point to a reference online where this was measured?



Jan 31, 2015 at 12:26 PM
mdbrown9999
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


Heat is a big issue. Since a fan is out of the question, your camera body doubles as a heat sink. A camera's processing power may be limited to the amount of heat that the body can dissipate. My 2 cents.


Jan 31, 2015 at 12:33 PM
ffstory
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?




Interesting. Can you point to a reference online where this was measured?


Check this datasheet. This is the SD chipset used in many recent Nikon DSLRs:

http://product.inrevium.com/sd/te4302.html

You can easily measure that. Press the shutter button for one minute at maximum speed in RAW+JPEG mode to single and two cards and then check how many pictures you get. You'll notice that two matching fast cards are slightly slower than one fast card. If you use two cards with different protocols) it could be significantly slower. This is due to extra overhead required. Only one card can be connected to the write port of the buffer at the time.

You'd need an extra write port from the buffer and dedicated controller with extra wires on the camera board. So you can't do this in the software.



Jan 31, 2015 at 12:42 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?




Check this datasheet. This is the SD chipset used in many recent Nikon DSLRs:

http://product.inrevium.com/sd/te4302.html

You can easily measure that. Press the shutter button for one minute at maximum speed in RAW+JPEG mode to single and two cards and then check how many pictures you get. You'll notice that two matching fast cards are slightly slower than one fast card. If you use two cards with different protocols) it could be significantly slower. This is due to extra overhead required. Only one card can be connected to the write port of the buffer at the time.

You'd need an extra write port from the
...Show more

Thanks, I'll look into the datasheet. However using two cards of equal speed should be 1/2 as slow vs a single card if the I/O port is entirely synchronously multiplexed (at the command level). If it SD interface supports data disconnects so that the controller can have outstanding commands to both cards with only the data phase multiplexing then performance would be a bit better than 1/2, except if the individual cards are fast enough to saturate the bandwidth of a single SD interface. Using cards of unequal speed will slow it further not from overhead but because the free frame buffer space in the camera would be determined by the slowest card - ie, the frame buffers can't be released until the slowest writes complete and that would mean the camera would run out of buffer space to sustain the faster card as well.



Jan 31, 2015 at 12:52 PM
chip_master
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


Canon the AMD of the camera world

Marketing or really better

As others said many many things come into play in whether any work load split between one or two processors, chips etc. etc. is better.

I only care how fast it can write to storage, how deep is the buffer, how good is the JPG engine, how power efficient is the camera, how fast it focus and tracks etc. etc. I could care if they had little ants working abacus in it.

Like a car the bottom line is 0-60, MPG, 50-70, emissions etc.



Jan 31, 2015 at 07:57 PM
nikt
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


Canon do make nice cameras, but their marketing is probably even better.

Whether I like it or not, people would tell us they wanted a camera because of the "Digic" processor.

My favourite comments when people talk about the next camera they want.... eg "should have 7 fps and Digic 7"

fps ... sure, something we can measure
Digic 7?... great marketing.






Feb 01, 2015 at 02:48 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


nikt wrote:
Canon do make nice cameras, but their marketing is probably even better.

Whether I like it or not, people would tell us they wanted a camera because of the "Digic" processor.

My favourite comments when people talk about the next camera they want.... eg "should have 7 fps and Digic 7"

fps ... sure, something we can measure
Digic 7?... great marketing.





********************

But isn't that often the way it is with the markets? Marketing and Branding sells.

Look at Apple for instance. People love the I-Phone even though Samsung had the same thing several years earlier. There are other MP3 players out there that work as well for 1/2 the money, but people love their I-Pod.

Beats head phones is another example ... and we could go on and on.





Feb 01, 2015 at 11:19 AM
EB-1
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Why doesn't Nikon take advantage of dual processsors?


mdbrown9999 wrote:
Heat is a big issue. Since a fan is out of the question, your camera body doubles as a heat sink. A camera's processing power may be limited to the amount of heat that the body can dissipate. My 2 cents.


Yes it is, and that's the advantage a large pro body has along with larger batteries to handle high processor power.

EBH



Feb 01, 2015 at 11:55 AM





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