Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Photo Critique | Join Upload & Sell
  

Archive 2015 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography
  
 
AuntiPode
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2015/01/scenic-photography.html

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2015/01/more-barn-more-on-scenic-photography.html#comments
Jan 21, 2015 at 04:35 AM
RustyBug
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


Yup, I remember being a 20-year old aspiring to emulate Outdoor Photographer.

That was a different time and place ... a monthly magazine was a visual image treat and the articles were your mentor (especially when deployed overseas). Today, we are inundated with imagery and information. That's a bit OT, but I think the issue is relevant to how we value what we shoot, who we shoot for and why we shoot what we shoot.

I think that scenic and landscape photography is for many the emulation gateway for advancing their photographic endeavors. How often have we seen images that have inspired us to aspire to take / make images like those we have seen from others ... vs. how many of those same images have inspired us to want to go / learn more about the location photographed. Combine that with the solitary aspect involved @ we don't need to have "people skills" in addition to developing our budding photographic skills ... it can be a very alluring genre for many to journey down its path.

Rather diff messages can exist from "Look what I did." to "See how pretty this is." to "Here's something I want to show you that you may have never known about."

First we learn to emulate, then we learn to create. I tend to think that many folks get stuck in a prolonged state of (nearly) perpetual emulation. I know I flirt in & out of emulation with landscape / scenic much more so than I do with my mundane abstraction pieces.

The former being a case of much thinking about what I've seen others have done. The latter being the case of revealing something others may have not previously considered.

I cut my teeth on Outdoor Photographer and aspiring to emulate Ansel Adams and Galen Rowell, et al. Being honest, my landscape & scenic work varies greatly from travel snapshot level to emulation to creation. But, I tend to find that the latter comes largely from a genuinely emotive cognition about something ... which on a good day, I can transfer into an image for conveyance about that time & place.

Without that "emotive cognition", much of my landscape and scenic is vastly rooted in emulation, even as I aspire to put my "signature" on it. But, when I do have an emotive cognition, I tend to impart more creation and less emulation. Granted, that doesn't always cause others to swoon or "oooh & ahhhh" over my imagery, but on a good day, it may make others think about something aligned to the emotive cognition I experienced from that place.

To that end, I try to ask the question "What is it (specifically) that you want me to consider / think about?" when looking at landscapes and scenics. For those that a clear answer exists, I tend to appreciate the message conveyed more than those that leave me scratching my head to ascertain what it is that compelled the image to be captured.

I think we tend to go through phases of growth as photographers (and as viewers) ... with many of us having to pass through emulation before developing our own aspect of creation. With the evermore prevalence of image inundation, it seems to be evermore challenging to detach from emulation, unless we have some kind of emotive cognition to assist that separation. How long will we remain attached to emulation is variable, but I think there is a difference between understanding the utility of our craft for emulation vs. its utility for creation.

First we learn to emulate, then we learn to create ... imo, landscapes and scenics can be a tough gig to break free of one and truly transition to the other ... unless you really have something to "say" (cell phone game) about a place or scene. But, we can still make a lot of enjoyable images (both taking and viewing) even while we are emulating. All the more so, when we are truly creating.






Edited on Jan 21, 2015 at 12:29 PM · View previous versions
Jan 21, 2015 at 09:58 AM
ben egbert
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


AuntiPode wrote:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2015/01/scenic-photography.html

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2015/01/more-barn-more-on-scenic-photography.html#comments

Man this is discouraging to read. Not that it's wrong, I often have similar thoughts myself. But if you take away landscapes, there is nothing left for me. This is a form of nihilism to me, and I am always on the borderline myself.

The same sort of thought process can apply to all venues, bridges, old buildings, old people old shoes etc.I always want my pictures to contain beauty so I don't point the camera at things that are ugly. But if people find character in old stuff, you could soon tire of that as well.

I bought my first camera because I moved to a place that had natural beauty. I wanted to capture it. Of course I have never quite succeeded in doing this, the camera just fails to get what we see. Especially fall leaves which the camera tends to turn into red/yellow/orange blobs without the fine texture.Unless of course you take a picture of a single leaf. I have never cared for miniatures.

I think the photography process goes from learning to capture what you saw (a never really complete job) to looking for better things to take and eventually to boredom. When boredom sets in, you start looking for novelty. Odd ball stuff.

I am like that lady who wants perfect light, sky's. no contrails. I will return over and over to get them. Thats the job of photography, not to create something that is not there, but to be there when it is special.


Edited on Jan 21, 2015 at 10:40 AM · View previous versions
Jan 21, 2015 at 10:11 AM
ben egbert
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


RustyBug wrote:
Yup, I remember being a 20-year old aspiring to emulate Outdoor Photographer.

That was a different time and place ... a monthly magazine was a visual image treat and the articles were your mentor (especially when deployed overseas). Today, we are inundated with imagery and information. That's a bit OT, but I think the issue is relevant to how we value what we shoot, who we shoot for and why we shoot what we shoot.

I think that scenic and landscape photography is for many the emulation gateway for advancing their photographic endeavors. How often have we seen images that have inspired...Show more →


Your comments make me think which is a good thing. Is there more than simply capturing what was there? How can I create something that is already there? I don't approach photography as a creative process but as a capturing process. My goal is to find something of great awe or beauty and then capture it.

The problem with that is it is hard to call that art, but I have already made that bargain.





Jan 21, 2015 at 10:19 AM
Camperjim
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


Over the past 4 years, I have traveled in the National Parks for at least half of that time. Almost everyday I have spent in touring and photography. I have struggled with the ideas expressed by the author. What is the meaning and "informational content" or as I describe it: What is the artistic intent, goals and vision? We also face what the author describes as reality being diminished by the photographic process.

At the very minimum I have found that I enjoy capturing memories. I love the beauty and interest and unique character of each place I visit. I want to capture at least some of that in my images. When it comes to something more, I feel lost. I have applied to a number of juried exhibitions and galleries and I have yet to submit a single landscape image out of my 1.5 Tb collection.

I have looked to Outdoor Photographer for inspiration and direction. Unfortunately I have been totally disappointed and rarely spend much time looking at that magazine. It seems to be almost entirely about gear and technique. When the subject of art arises, the discussion is almost entirely restricted to composition. I view composition as a technique not an artistic accomplishment.

I have also spent a great deal of time looking at the FM Landscape Forum. I have been even more disappointed. Every image needs to be technically great or it receives negative or no comments. The images which are popular are those with what I call shock and awe. The weekly winners are almost all virtually identical in concept. The shock and awe comes from an hdr or blend with a shot into the setting sun. Typically dodge and burn or other elements of composition help to pull the viewer's eye to the sunset (or sunrise). Certainly these images require a great deal of skill mostly with post processing. The game is getting tougher and tougher. A good shot into the sunset is not enough and we are often treated to a rainbow or two and/or a few lightening strikes. I guess there is a lot of shock and awe and drama, but after the first 50 images or so, the concept starts to look trite and loses the feeling of originality.

I have also looked at the past masters of landscape photography for inspiration. Some photographers are content to try to emulate the old photos, including standing at the exact correct places at the correct time of the day. Unfortunately, to me, that does not seem like much of an accomplishment or goal. With modern cameras and post processing it takes only a little skill to outdo the old timers. The old timers, like Adams, had something else going for them. Adams showed off images that capture great beauty of places that were largely unknown and not visited. That has changed. Now most of us have visited at least a few of those places and we have seen countless, countless images of those places.


Jan 21, 2015 at 10:42 AM
ben egbert
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


Jim, you also made me think, thanks for that.

You are correct about the landscape forum and I will add that you need to travel to places like Iceland or the Andes to get something unique.

I am guilty of looking for Ansel Adams tripod holes. But then I am content to be an emulator. I guess I never thought of it that way, but the discussions we have here help me think about it.

Why would I want to do this? Simple, I need something to do and it is a challenge just to emulate. If I wanted to create, I would take up painting.

I have maybe 40-50 images on display and at least that many taken down to make room for those that are up. I am not bored with any that are still up and even some that were removed.

None are world class, but all are mine. They each carry a memory and that memory is very firm and distinct. I can recall the weather, the sounds of the scene. None of this is possible to transfer to others and I consider it a fools errand to even try.
Jan 21, 2015 at 11:13 AM
RustyBug
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


ben egbert wrote:

I can recall the weather, the sounds of the scene. None of this is possible to transfer to others and I consider it a fools errand to even try.


And yet, it is some of this very "presence" that Adams aspired to convey @ what it was like to be in a place. Granted, it is an incomplete conveyance in that one cannot replicate it fully from an objective basis ... and maybe only marginally to the extent of the viewers own imagination from the visual cues we render.

I think it is good to understand that a goal of emulation can still be a worthy goal and it is not a trivial undertaking in its own right.

Kind of reminds me of a marksman who aspires for a perfect score or the ability to split the arrow with another arrow. It is a growth challenge toward extraordinary level of mastery over one's chosen endeavor. That doesn't mean a "lesser skilled in marksmanship" hunter can't still put a tasty meal on the table to be enjoyed. Nor does it mean that all skilled marksman can find elusive game ... that involves yet another skillset(s) ... and even some luck.

So it can be with ours @ multiple skill sets, vision, and a bit of tenacious luck ... whether that is emulation or creation. Each has its place and all can be enjoyed.
Jan 21, 2015 at 12:22 PM
ben egbert
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


Thanks Kent for advancing the discussion. I might be over the top, but I don't know what I don't know. I am a limited self contained sort of guy with almost zero empathy. This is very limiting and I know it, but empathy is not something to be learned at age 74.

So I express feelings and goals I have for myself which are probably only 50% of those that others here have. I hear them expressed but cannot really understand what they mean. I should make it clear that I am the half baked person.

What I say is based on my personal limits not what is possible for others. In photography, I have strived to be a craftsman but never to transition to art. I guess art is possible with a camera, I just don't get it.



Jan 21, 2015 at 12:40 PM
RustyBug
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


No worries Ben,

I postulate between the message / art side and the craftsman / technician side of our beloved craft. My roots were decidedly shoved to the technical side of things as part of my early shortcomings, hence my interest to better understand them ... yet striving as well to better understand the message / art side of image making as well.

Imo, there is a symbiotic relationship between the two ... neither being able to fully exist without the other. Even forensic photography cannot be devoid of its message delivery. It may indeed have a greater restriction on creative liberty as an art form, etc. ... but the technical alone does not make for "fair representation" without understanding the tenets that involve message reception / perception.

Granted, forensic isn't what most folks aspire for, but that is only to suggest the relationships of art / message and technical / craftsmanship remain integrated on a sliding scale, no matter which end of the spectrum one might prefer ... weighted left or right as the case may be @ personal choice.

As to the camera making art:

I can't draw a stick man with a ruler ... so I use a camera that lets me paint by numbers.


Jan 21, 2015 at 01:31 PM
RustyBug
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


ben egbert wrote:
I am guilty of looking for Ansel Adams tripod holes. But then I am content to be an emulator.


I used to aspire to emulate AA from the camera side (at least in style). This is really only 1/2 (or less) of the emulation. AA's other 1/2 (or 1/3's) was of course the darkroom (i.e. PP), bu it was rooted in knowing what he wanted to try and convey of the experience of being there in presence.

Early on, I thought it was the "tripod holes" or framing that made AA's imagery as it was. When I first learned of his darkroom work ... that was my "He Cheats !!!" moment. Fast forward 20 years and I began to embrace manipulation emulation, then to (somewhat) realize the connection between the pieces of the puzzle, including the guiding goals in an attempt to convey presence. I won't begin to suggest that I'm of that caliber, but my point is that it is another skillset to include in the realm that for many folks is, "first we learn to emulate, then we learn to create".

If you're growing somewhat weary of chasing the tripod holes, I might suggest a study of AA's darkroom work ... and the intent behind it. That might provide a few more carrots to chase, even after you caught those holes.




Jan 21, 2015 at 06:44 PM
ben egbert
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


The thing about tripod holes is that they represent the best places. There are very few best places left, so we landscapers don't have much choice but to return to those in our travel range over and over.

No two sunsets are alike so that allows for some variety. We may look locally and stumble upon a little known place with some of the magic, but such places are almost always 2nd tier.

As far as post processing goes, I spend far more time in PP than in capture. Is there more I could do? Maybe. My problem is not how many different tools I have, but in knowing when to stop. As my posts here reveal. I never stop soon enough.

Not sure I can learn much from a B&W guy doing darkroom stuff. I mean once you have exposure and sharpness and contrast, there is not much else that translates from B&W.




Jan 21, 2015 at 07:29 PM
RustyBug
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


The thing about the B&W guy doing darkroom stuff isn't the "what" or the "how" ... it's more of the "why" that could be an emulation to add to the arsenal with universal applicability.
Jan 21, 2015 at 09:05 PM
FarmerJohn
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


Interesting comments indeed, they certainly resonate in some ways. In other ways, just seems like needless inane nuancing... "landscape" vs "scenic".... come on... either you like/get/appreciate/respect the image and message or you don't. Trying to say that one genre has a message and one does not have a message seems pointless.


I definitely try to avoid 'reducing a place to it's photographic potential' when I'm out there - I want to make sure to continue to enjoy nature.
I think my personal best landscape work has come when I can get the image to evoke the feeling of being there, of the quiet, of the peacefulness, of the approaching storm.... similarly, the one image I haven't gotten done yet that really annoys me is the one where I have a certain feeling I wanted to capture, and the image hasn't put that across.


Jan 22, 2015 at 01:28 AM
RustyBug
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


+1 @ enjoy nature > reveal the experience / joy / majesty / intrigue / serenity / power / dichotomy / harmony / grandeur / et al

Images can be a bit like holding someone's hand and leading them to a "special place" that you want to show them so they can experience it too.

Even in person, not everyone responds to a given scene / place the same way. How we "see" (i.e. think) things is of course a culmination of who we are, predicated upon our sum life. But, if I want to share something with someone, I have to at least take them there ... be that in person, verbally or visually (as best I can).


We have a family joke that goes like this:

Years ago, a couple of family members were driving from the mid-west to California. As their itinerary was favorable, I suggested (phone call) to the driver that they had ample time to divert a bit and go see the Grand Canyon ... laying out the relative minimal impact to their schedule.

The reply that I received was ... "Why would I want to do that? It's only a hole in the ground."

So, when we visited the Grand Canyon later on, we had to laugh @ "Yup, it's only a hole in the ground."


When I think about some of what we see in images today (to Jim's point), we see things that are fabrications beyond what we can have any hope of experiencing as a person, as well as those that represent what we might experience as a person if we were fortunate to be there in a given time & place.

I saw a recent astronomy shot where the critique was that there were "too many" stars visible as the tracking device and D810 combination revealed a "new level" of what we typically see. My thought was ... I HAVE seen that many stars. Granted, it was on in the middle of the ocean on a moonless night and taking the time to allow accommodation to fully occur. That is something that not a lot of folks get to experience ... but it was an image that was close to what I had experienced. I can't take folks out in the middle of the ocean to experience this, but I could show them such an image.

Sometimes we strive to reveal what others might be capable of seeing ... sometimes we strive to capture that which is rarely seen ... sometimes we strive to reveal what we may have been feeling ... sometimes we strive to create something that can only be seen from an amplification of our imagination ... sometimes it is merely a reveal of something that goes otherwise unnoticed in the vastness of the world that surrounds us. And sometimes, it is simply to preserve a memory.

Imo, it's all good (as long as it's honest for what it is vs. isn't).
Jan 22, 2015 at 09:48 AM
Camperjim
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


Kent, your hole in the ground story reminds me of my first visit to Grand Canyon. That was 30 some years ago when I was driving across country to start a new job. I decided to make the side trip to see the Canyon. I drove into Williams about 10 pm in a heavy snowstorm--the kind were you have to keep stopping to clear the wiper blades. Next morning with a couple of feet of snow on the ground I decided to go for the Canyon since a plow had sort of cleared the road in the night. An hour or so later I was finally at the rim. The visibility was OK but it was cold with a strong wind. Ten minutes later I was back in the car with a long drive back to the interstate.

Many years later I lived in Phoenix and coworkers planned a trip to the Canyon with a hike down and back. I passed. Another decade went by and I visited the north rim. It was summer with nice weather. I spent about 10 minutes watching the hikers climb out of the Canyon. I got bored and left.

I have been back one more time a few years ago and spent a couple of days. It was OK but still has failed to really interest or impress me.


Jan 22, 2015 at 10:26 AM
ben egbert
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


I have a fond memory of that hole in the ground. Just requires the right light.
Jan 22, 2015 at 11:57 AM
RustyBug
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


ben egbert wrote:
Just requires the right light.

Kinda true of most everything photo (light) - graphic (drawing) ...

The world is our palette from which to display and convey our thoughts, experiences and emotions onto our canvas of choice. Light is the medium, lenses are the brushes with which we apply it.
Jan 22, 2015 at 12:56 PM
ben egbert
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


I suspect this is over the top but if you look past how I processed it, you can still see the wonderful light. The sun was reflecting off the clouds and down into the canyon which brought out all those gorgeous reds and oranges.

This was an image that did not require blend and looked a lot like this on the LCD. Of course I enhanced it to my standards.

The point here is that this hole in the ground can be pretty grand. And, I don't ever expect to get these conditions again.
Jan 22, 2015 at 01:17 PM
FarmerJohn
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Interesting comments on scenic and landscape photography


Hehe, I have had the same discussions with my friends about the 'big hole in the ground.'
Clearly, it makes the point that everyone sees the landscape differently, even for something as well known as the Grand Canyone.

Nice one Ben
My first trip to the Grand Canyon was with a rebel-and-kit-lens, and I knew very little about waiting for light/angles/etc. Compositions were decent... I should maybe revisit those photos, and the canyon with some new knowledge. Small world story... saw some local farmers (since when do two sets of farmers go on vacation at the same time?!) and someone I knew from college... all on the same north rim trail.




Jan 23, 2015 at 01:41 AM





FM Forums | Photo Critique | Join Upload & Sell
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.