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Archive 2015 · Plans for forum behavior next year.

  
 
ben egbert
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Plans for forum behavior next year.



1 Do a lot less image posting.

2. Never post to a presentation forum unless the image is perfect.

3. Only post images at critique when I have a genuine question or problem to solve.

4. Only offer advice on the critique forum when I am sure of what I say.

5. Phrase all advice as opinion.

6. Delete any post I create that has not had a reply after say ½ day.



Jan 19, 2015 at 09:57 AM
lighthound
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


ben egbert wrote:
1 Do a lot less image posting.

2. Never post to a presentation forum unless the image is perfect.

3. Only post images at critique when I have a genuine question or problem to solve.

4. Only offer advice on the critique forum when I am sure of what I say.

5. Phrase all advice as opinion.

6. Delete any post I create that has not had a reply after say ½ day.


1. If I posted any less than what I already do because of my fear of #2 then I guess I shouldn't make any post. Is that what this forum is really about? I thought it was for learning and trying to improve our work through the shared advise of others that are more established in this art?

2. Perfect by who's standards? Yours? Mine? Fred's? Personally I know my work is no where near as good as most of the peoples in here and I find myself very discouraged and afraid to make any post at all. I have made a couple of post this year and I have gotten very little if any feedback on them which tells me that maybe this is not the right forum for newbies like me. I have searched and read anything I could find from Fred that would indicate that this forum is "reserved" for the professionals only and if ones work does not meet a certain standard then one should refrain from ever posting.

3. Why? Isn't the critique board a place that you can just post an image that you might be happy with and simply offer to share it there to see if anyone might have a slightly different twist on it and might offer a few suggestions that you might not have thought about? I just saw this very thing happen yesterday on someone post that they were asking about something entirely different and they seemed very happy for the suggestion they were given.

4. Sure of what you say? Wouldn't #5 apply? It's simply your opinion right or wrong.

5. Yep, I agree and the word "phrase" is the key word here. Most of everything I read here is simply someone's opinion but the way it is phrased is very important.

6. Delete my post. Nope, I'm not gonna do it. I want people to anguish over my pathetic images for eternity.
Actually now that you have mentioned it, maybe I should go delete them.


Idk Ben. I personally enjoy seeing all of your work and others regardless of how "perfect" the images are. By reading what other people think about the said images helps me understand what makes a better photograph even though the comments are simply just their "opinion".


So with all that said, did I miss the memo about this forum being only for professionals? Seriously, do folks like me not belong here?



Jan 19, 2015 at 11:22 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


I make a distinction between a presentation forum like "Landscape" and a critique forum like this one. Item 2 is aimed at the landscape forum. I don't post there for critique, and the level there is so high I am completely out of my class.

This forum is for critique and sneaking in one for presentation seems like cheating. I should only post images that I am unhappy with, or where I am working out a process and need some feedback.

"Sure of what I say", the other day I posted a comment about DOF that was essentially correct but not as rigorous as it should have been. This is what I mean in that regard.

Some people, myself included sometimes post an opinion that comes off as forceful as holy writ.

I have been deleting unanswered posts for several months. This is a semi dead forum so I wait 1/2 day. But if people have read it and leave no reply it must be considered DOA.

Bottom line, if I want opinion I come here, and what I say should either be so correct it cannot be refuted, or simple opinion. If my image has issues, it does not belong on a presentation forum.



Jan 19, 2015 at 12:05 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


I wouldn't be too quick to make an assessment of DOA @ 1/2 day ... some folks do tend to other things and sometimes, it can take a bit of pondering to formulate how to approach a given image / subject.


As to Lighthound's concern ... ALL levels are appropriate in the PC forum.

It is a place to ask for assistance (and opinion) @ growth forum (note the grouping with the MA & WA forum @ assignment challenges) from fellow FM'ers who can put some extra "eyes" & "minds" into the review process. No requirement for a given level ... just bring what ya got, with a goal of hearing what others might have to think / say about it ... right, wrong or just plain different.

The ONE thing that comes to mind for me regarding forum behavior (this forum in particular) would be if the OP could include some way to identify if a person is open to reworks, nit-picking, or simply is looking for the proverbial like / don't like.

Maybe Fred could code in a couple of radio button check boxes for the OP to select something to alert fellow FM'ers of their desires. Or maybe code in an option for a "forced ranking" ... a pseudo poll. Or maybe a radio button coding that would disable images from being posted in the thread by not the OP.

To that end, maybe we could harness the already existing poll option. Then you could have a poll that goes something like:

LOVE IT ... Hang it as is
Love it ... a few nitpicks
(that don't change the overall image, but if you're gonna move this before an even stronger scrutiny @ competition, client, etc.)
Like it ... some fundamental changes would improve it
It's okay ... but I'm not excited by it
Like the concept ... needs help technically
Not doing it for me

OR

Just a simple 1-5 scale for voting. I'll start one like this off for illustration. That could be a "different" behavior than we've used much in this forum.

Edited on Jan 19, 2015 at 06:53 PM · View previous versions



Jan 19, 2015 at 01:35 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


I guess I'm a little slow as I'm still perplexed by some of what you say.

I understand the distinction you make between the presentation boards and the critique board, however what is the purpose of sharing any image on the presentation boards if it's not for critique? Granted, most of the incredible images shared on those boards only receive praise but that in itself is critique. Would anyone post any images there if the "Reply" feature was removed?

I have to respectfully disagree with you about the need to be more rigorous with your comments or advise. Although I admire and respect your desire to improve, as long as the advise you are giving is correct then that is what matters. One doesn't necessarily have to have complete answers. IMHO, a good forum is made up from many good people like yourself that are willing to share their wisdom in a combined manner. Sort of like the bricks in a building, one brick by itself is just a brick but when combined with many others it makes for a strong foundation. IMHO, you Sr. are one of those solid bricks in the foundation around here.

So the bottom line, what you're really telling me is I should stop posting because ALL images have issues. <---That is said in a very joking manner.


Lighthound crawls back into corner thinking...
Now where is that delete thread button thingy, I got some cleaning up to do.




Jan 19, 2015 at 02:08 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


Thanks for the explanation Rusty. I like your rating system concept but I would add one last line for folks like me.


LOVE IT ... Hang it as is
Love it ... a few nitpicks
(that don't change the overall image, but if you're gonna move this before an even stronger scrutiny @ competition, client, etc.)
Like it ... some fundamental changes would improve it
It's okay ... but I'm not excited by it
Like the concept ... needs help technically
Not doing it for me
OMG! My eyes! My eyes!


btw, who's lighthouse?



Jan 19, 2015 at 02:19 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


lighthound wrote:
I guess I'm a little slow as I'm still perplexed by some of what you say.

I understand the distinction you make between the presentation boards and the critique board, however what is the purpose of sharing any image on the presentation boards if it's not for critique? Granted, most of the incredible images shared on those boards only receive praise but that in itself is critique. Would anyone post any images there if the "Reply" feature was removed?

I have to respectfully disagree with you about the need to be more rigorous with your comments or advise. Although I admire and
...Show more

Well this behavior statement is just for me, not everyone and reflects my current place in photography. A lot of what goes on in a forum is oneupmanship. People like to say its not sharp, or it has color cast or other things. I hate that game to high heaven and will not participate. But also many at the landscape forum are just plain world class and many require world travel as well. It is like me entering a pro golf tournament, what would be the purpose of that?

If I post what I consider a finished image, I don't want any critique. And if I know its not good enough I just won't post it. If you have a thick skin post it, but my skin is exceedingly thin.

As far as being rigorous with my technical comments, here is my thinking. If I say hyperfocal ought to be focused half way in and it's actually 1/3 or 256/400s or some such, it makes me look like an idiot and I don't want to look like an idiot.

I would probably be better off to say that hyperfocal should be focused part way into the zone of acceptable sharpness. Half way is an exact statement but is technically wrong.







Jan 19, 2015 at 02:23 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


RustyBug wrote:
I wouldn't be too quick to make an assessment of DOA @ 1/2 day ... some folks do tend to other things and sometimes, it can take a bit of pondering to formulate how to approach a given image / subject.

As to Lighthouse's concern ... ALL levels are appropriate in the PC forum.

It is a place to ask for assistance (and opinion) @ growth forum (note the grouping with the MA & WA forum @ assignment challenges) from fellow FM'ers who can put some extra "eyes" & "minds" into the review process. No requirement for a given level ...
...Show more

I also like the rating idea. Much better to me than typical critique, especially on a presentation forum. Detailed comments are appropriate here however.




Jan 19, 2015 at 02:25 PM
sbeme
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


Much to think about, comment on and thanks to you Ben for stimulating a needed revisit to the role of critique and posting images.

I like the rating idea.

In contrast to most presentation boards and most responses, you are more likely to get a more detailed, critical and hopefully critically useful feedback here. And the expense sometimes of nit-picking from me and....I dare say, others. But also with great suggestions on how to finish an image, what to aspire to in the future.
On the Landscape and Nature presentation boards quality is superbly high. However some mediocre shots get praise, reflecting a supportive atmosphere, an avoidance of critical feedback, and a pleasant social element. I know less of the other boards except BW where many images go without comment. Always hard to interpret.

I would love other onlookers to post their goals/wishes for Critique. Is that a separate thread? A poll? Or an extension of Ben's original post and direction?


Scott



Jan 19, 2015 at 02:54 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


sbeme wrote:
Much to think about, comment on and thanks to you Ben for stimulating a needed revisit to the role of critique and posting images.

I like the rating idea.

In contrast to most presentation boards and most responses, you are more likely to get a more detailed, critical and hopefully critically useful feedback here. And the expense sometimes of nit-picking from me and....I dare say, others. But also with great suggestions on how to finish an image, what to aspire to in the future.
On the Landscape and Nature presentation boards quality is superbly high. However some mediocre shots get praise, reflecting a
...Show more

Always glad when my brainstorming stimulates other ideas. The poll idea is a great example of this. Also just having this conversation is a way for people to express their own needs and wishes for the forum. And for me, something to do while waiting for the dregs of winter to end.





Jan 19, 2015 at 02:58 PM
beavens
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


RustyBug wrote:
The ONE thing that comes to mind for me regarding forum behavior (this forum in particular) would be if the OP could include some way to identify if a person is open to reworks, nit-picking, or simply is looking for the proverbial like / don't like.

Maybe Fred could code in a couple of radio button check boxes for the OP to select something to alert fellow FM'ers of their desires. Or maybe code in an option for a "forced ranking" ... a pseudo poll. Or maybe a radio button coding that would disable images from being posted in the thread
...Show more

Super awesome idea, Kent!

I doubt it would hard at all to implement an extra drop-down under the posting options to include how the OP feels about reworks.

Honestly, I never thought it was really an issue until it was brought up for discussion.

Lighthound - please don't feel to intimidated to post! I'm a pretty shoddy photographer, and it took me a bit of lurking before I finally started posting pictures and opinions. But this place is pretty awesome for steering you in the right direction if you give it a chance.

I definitely think that I've grown since signing up and participating.

Cheers,

Jeff




Jan 19, 2015 at 03:06 PM
AuntiPode
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


ben egbert wrote:
As far as being rigorous with my technical comments, here is my thinking. If I say hyperfocal ought to be focused half way in and it's actually 1/3 or 256/400s or some such, it makes me look like an idiot and I don't want to look like an idiot.


Heck, Ben, I posted a blunder in the same thread about long lens because I grabbed a long lens to check its scale and read the meter scale instead of the feet scale. I hate when I blunder, but what the heck? Everyone blunders sometimes. It feels like I blunder more than most, but that's what the edit function is for - not so no one will know, but to acknowledge and correct. Does everyone know I blundered. Sure! At least if they are paying attention. The alternative is to be silent or obsess over double checking everything I post. Nope, won't do it. Too lazy. I know a lot but I don't know everything and like everyone else, some of what I know is wrong. Do you forgive others for making mistakes? I do. We are only fallible human beings. If you'd forgive others, why not forgive yourself? Sure, it's natural to cringe when you blunder, especially in public. Ouch! But, ... I cringe, therefore I am. I'll stop blundering when I draw my last breath. Until then, I'd rather live and blunder and hope folks understand, 'cause screwing up sometimes is what people do.




Jan 19, 2015 at 03:53 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


AuntiPode wrote:
Heck, Ben, I posted a blunder in the same thread about long lens because I grabbed a long lens to check its scale and read the meter scale instead of the feet scale. I hate when I blunder, but what the heck? Everyone blunders sometimes. It feels like I blunder more than most, but that's what the edit function is for - not so no one will know, but to acknowledge and correct. Does everyone know I blundered. Sure! At least if they are paying attention. The alternative is to be silent or obsess over double checking everything I post.
...Show more

No, its ok to be wrong, but I was just too lazy to make an exact statement. I knew better than half way and it was not a mistake, it was just pure laziness. But a new person may take it as fact and while it might actually sort of work, it works better if you do it right.

I would like a reputation of giving correct information. much of photography seems to be subjective here correct has no meaning, but some of it is very exact, and I should not play fast and loose with that.




Jan 19, 2015 at 03:58 PM
AuntiPode
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


ben egbert wrote:
6. Delete any post I create that has not had a reply after say ½ day.


... Because everyone with anything useful to suggest lives within a few time zones in the USA?

... Because everyone with something useful to suggest is anxious to post a reply without taking more than half a day to ponder their advice?

... Because everyone with something useful to say lives on-line and never spends a day doing chores or attending to the business of real life?

... Because everyone who makes useful suggestions always has a suggestion to make about every image posted?

Other similar questions come to mind....





Jan 19, 2015 at 04:27 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


I always give you time to reply. I just don't want to junk up the forum with too many posts. Its pretty much all I have to do.

I will leave them up longer based on your comment to have time to think about things. That is sort of why I mentioned this to begin with to get some feedback or push back. I sometimes feel like I am setting in an empty room.



Jan 19, 2015 at 04:34 PM
AuntiPode
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


ben egbert wrote:
I sometimes feel like I am setting in an empty room.


Except for forums with very heavy traffic, I'd say that's the nature of forums. They are, at most, a very loosely time-bound medium.




Jan 19, 2015 at 06:16 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


lighthound wrote:
btw, who's lighthouse?


Sorry 'bout that (edited). My only excuse is > OMG! My eyes! My eyes!



Jan 19, 2015 at 07:00 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


beavens wrote:
I definitely think that I've grown since signing up and participating.


Amen to that ... it would be curious to hear nominations for "most improved".

We don't hear much from Jim (OldRattler) these days, but seeing some of his stuff in the WA compared to when he first was frequenting PC Forum ... I think he's at least one example of someone who has springboarded a bit since participating. There are certainly others, and I think THAT is the fundamental premise of the MA, WA & PC Forums ... GROWTH ... in any & all manner(s) of our beloved craft @ "Iron Sharpens Iron".







Jan 19, 2015 at 07:15 PM
FarmerJohn
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


Definitely good food for thought.
I like the poll idea... lots of questions you could ask in a poll...

I think "participation" is a key word. Post images for critique, and also offer your opinion for other folks. I think it is easier (on this forum and the presentation forums) to get feedback if you are also participating in the other discussions. Post critique as you feel comfortable, or a simple like/dislike or 'why did you do x' question...?

My critique forum behavior... I want to have a clearer idea of my message before I post, and hopefully the critique can help with 'did I deliver the message'



Jan 20, 2015 at 09:19 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Plans for forum behavior next year.


FarmerJohn wrote:
the critique can help with 'did I deliver the message'


Yup, it can do that alright.

Lots of images that I've really liked where I took them, yet @ my "sublime" messages = message sent, message NOT received.





Jan 20, 2015 at 10:04 AM
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