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Archive 2015 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action

  
 
hijazist
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


I've never used strobes for action before, I've shot action with no strobes and I've used strobes for non-action

I will be shooting a biking race in a couple of weeks using 2 Profoto B1s with Zoom Reflector II. The B1s now have HSS which allows me to shoot at 1/4000 (lowest possible power with HSS is 8).

Would you guys recommend using HSS to freeze the action or use regular sync and depend on the short flash duration of the B1 (with freeze mode the B1 can shoot at 1/19000 at lowest power).

The race should be during the day so ambient will be plenty, I am just adding the strobes to add more drama to the images.



Jan 17, 2015 at 03:06 PM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


I would use shutter speeds beyond my maximum x-sync, I wouldn't use HSS, I don't think the B1's HSS option would be the most suitable option for this and the full power output is too short to offer any other option.

Then, it would depend specifically on what you were intending to do. "Adding Drama" would only be in a limited amount of applications.



Jan 17, 2015 at 08:20 PM
NCAndy
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


Your flash won't freeze action at sync speeds unless it can overpower the ambient by about 4 stops. Then you would have the cycling in a cave look, but I doubt that is really possible anyway in the day. You should probably use the flash for fill, using HSS and a ss of 1/1250 or slightly faster, exposing for the ambient light or slightly under.

I'm not familiar with the B1 heads, so not sure if TTL is available. Since cycling is dynamic I would think the subject distance will change and TTL might work best to fill in using your flash.

You can use a slower ss if you pan and then use the flash for fill. That way you can stay under the sync speed and the flash will have more power or recycle faster. The flash still won't freeze the action because you are close to the ambient exposure, but the slow ss will make the wheels appear in motion and the flash will fill in the subject.



Jan 17, 2015 at 08:28 PM
hijazist
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


NCAndy wrote:
Your flash won't freeze action at sync speeds unless it can overpower the ambient by about 4 stops. Then you would have the cycling in a cave look, but I doubt that is really possible anyway in the day. You should probably use the flash for fill, using HSS and a ss of 1/1250 or slightly faster, exposing for the ambient light or slightly under.

I'm not familiar with the B1 heads, so not sure if TTL is available. Since cycling is dynamic I would think the subject distance will change and TTL might work best to fill in using
...Show more

Much appreciated The B1 does offer TTL with HSS which is cool. I also like the idea of panning and filling with flash.

Can you elaborate on using the flash to freeze the action at sync speed and why it should be overpowering the ambient by 4 stops?



Jan 17, 2015 at 09:57 PM
NCAndy
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


If your exposure is at or near ambient light, and at sync speed or slower, then the flash really won't have much effect other than to fill, or add a bit more light in daylight conditions. Maybe the B1 is powerful enough to add more light. But at 1/250 or slower, motion will be obvious unless the subject is still. If you could overpower the ambient by about 4-4.5 stops then if you exposed for the flash the background would be very dark or black and the flash would provide the only light. Since the flash speed is fast, it would freeze the action. It's probably not the look I would want.

I think the cool thing to do when shooting cycling it to try to convey motion but have some part of the subject sharp. Using sync speeds as low as 1/15-30s and panning with TTL flash should do that but you won't get keepers every frame, but the ones you do get could be very nice. Under expose the ambient by about a stop would help the subject pop.

It's fun to experiment.



Jan 17, 2015 at 10:52 PM
basehorhonda
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


hijazist wrote:
Much appreciated The B1 does offer TTL with HSS which is cool. I also like the idea of panning and filling with flash.

Can you elaborate on using the flash to freeze the action at sync speed and why it should be overpowering the ambient by 4 stops?


Because of flash duration.



Jan 29, 2015 at 09:22 AM
Gregg Heckler
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


As Ian mentions, HSS is really not the technology you want for your application. HSS does give you a higher sync capability but at the expense of flash power. So, you can't overpower the sun. What you need is Hypersync. You want a strobe that has enough power to overpower the ambient (so the strobe is the key light source) and a combined ability to shoot at higher shutter speeds (highersync) to stop the action. You might be able to do this with Pockectwizard technology. I am not sure if it will work with B1's but it will with standard Profoto, Elinchrom, and Alien Bees. Go to www.pocketwizard.com and read the info and watch the videos on HSS versus Hypersync.


Jan 29, 2015 at 11:39 AM
Sheldon N
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


Check out this article on using B1 with HSS.

http://neilvn.com/tangents/high-speed-flash-sync-hss-profoto-b1-flash/

It looks like you lose two stops from normal output when you flip over to HSS mode, but in practice that only equates to one stop against ambient. Remember that with HSS (or Hypersync) your ratio of ambient to flash is essentially fixed once you're above your sync speed. Increase the shutter speed and you cut into the flash power and ambient equally. In the case of the B1, there is not much loss of power when using HSS, so there's no reason to mess with Hypersync.

So, your B1 should have a fair bit of power to light up the cyclists even when competing against ambient daylight, depending on what modifier you use. I'd recommend using the HSS mode with your B1.



Jan 29, 2015 at 12:38 PM
hijazist
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


Gregg Heckler wrote:
As Ian mentions, HSS is really not the technology you want for your application. HSS does give you a higher sync capability but at the expense of flash power. So, you can't overpower the sun. What you need is Hypersync. You want a strobe that has enough power to overpower the ambient (so the strobe is the key light source) and a combined ability to shoot at higher shutter speeds (highersync) to stop the action. You might be able to do this with Pockectwizard technology. I am not sure if it will work with B1's but it will with
...Show more

Thanks for the info Gregg. I am very happy with the B1 and I honestly can't imagine going back to triggers/receivers, cords and battery packs.

I have read the article before when I had my Elinchroms and I was trying to achieve HS with the PW triggers.

They need to update the article btw "HSS/Auto FP requires a speedlight. Studio strobes are not capable of pulsing light"

Edited on Jan 29, 2015 at 02:20 PM · View previous versions



Jan 29, 2015 at 02:13 PM
hijazist
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


Sheldon N wrote:
Check out this article on using B1 with HSS.

http://neilvn.com/tangents/high-speed-flash-sync-hss-profoto-b1-flash/

It looks like you lose two stops from normal output when you flip over to HSS mode, but in practice that only equates to one stop against ambient. Remember that with HSS (or Hypersync) your ratio of ambient to flash is essentially fixed once you're above your sync speed. Increase the shutter speed and you cut into the flash power and ambient equally. In the case of the B1, there is not much loss of power when using HSS, so there's no reason to mess with Hypersync.

So, your B1
...Show more

Thanks for the link That's what I thought, when you cut ambient by increasing shutter speed then the power loss from the B1 won't be dramatic. The B1 is also not a speedlight so there should be enough power to over power the ambient, at least I hope so



Jan 29, 2015 at 02:15 PM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


HSS is a gimmick. It's a solution to a problem if you don't really understand the problem.

There's always hope.



Jan 29, 2015 at 06:25 PM
Gregg Heckler
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


"Thanks for the info Gregg. I am very happy with the B1 and I honestly can't imagine going back to triggers/receivers, cords and battery packs.

I have read the article before when I had my Elinchroms and I was trying to achieve HS with the PW triggers.

They need to update the article btw "HSS/Auto FP requires a speedlight. Studio strobes are not capable of pulsing light"

Note to achieve HSS using PW's, it requires a Pocketwizard TT1 and TT5 with Speedlights, not just regular Pocketwizards. It's the same as Nikon's HSS only it allows you to do it with an off-camera Speedlight.

When using a studio Strobe with the TT1 and TT5 PW system, it would then be Hypersync, it doesn't require pulsing the light. The big advantage of Hypersync is that you can shoot at high shutter speeds using all the power of a strobe to overpower ambient light or just as fill. With a regular strobe like Elinchrom RX's, Ranger, or Quadra, their shortest flash duration is at their highest power. So this is why I recommended Hypersync if you have to shoot at high shutter speeds, short durations to stop action, smaller f/stops for depth of field, and to overpower the ambient. And this is why the action shooters using Strobe as their key light source use Hpersync and Ranger's. It's why PW developed it.

Note the B1 just like the Einstein, achieve their shortest flash duration at their lowest power settings. This is a similar to the circuitry used in Speedlights. But the short duration comes with few stops of lost power. Nothing wrong with that if all you care about is balancing the ambient light and shooting at wide apertures.. At full power, the B1 has a t.1 duration of about 1/300, it could overpower the sun, but it will not be enough to stop action. But if you want to overpower the sun and "stop" action with a studio strobe as the strobe as your key light source, you may need all 500 watts or double that, at say noon or a bright day.

There are ways however, to make strobes like the B1 work by using more efficient reflectors, closer distances etc., so you can take advantage of the shorter duration at lower power settings. If you were a portrait shooter then the B1 is ideal. The Planet Neil article is a good example of this There are advantages to both.

Someone correct me please if the new HSS technology will work at the shorter flash durations of the B1.



Jan 29, 2015 at 08:37 PM
Sheldon N
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


Greg, I think the new B1 HSS mode works just like conventional high speed sync does with Canon/Nikon speedlights. It is a pulsing series of flashes that last the duration of the exposure. This means a couple things...

It effectively becomes a continuous light source. Your flash power sets the lighting ratio of ambient to strobe, then shutter speed/ISO/Aperture are all about controlling depth of field or freezing motion and don't affect the lighting ratio at all.

Any concern about t.1 or t.5 times goes out the window. If you want to freeze action, you just increase your shutter speed and either open the aperture or increase ISO to keep the global exposure correct.

Neil's article seems to suggest that you lose about 1 stop of flash power against ambient when switching over to HSS, and the available power range is between 8 and 10. That means the total power available is the equivalent of between 60 and 250 watt seconds to compete against daylight. Not amazing, but definitely workable depending on your modifier/distance and WAY more than you get with speedlights in HSS mode.

The Profoto HSS option and Hypersync both end up working roughly the same way in practice, but I think Profoto's implementation is probably easier to use and control.



Jan 31, 2015 at 02:01 PM
Gregg Heckler
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


Thank you Sheldon that's good info. I have been thinking about a B1 but was waiting to hear something like this first. Profoto has incorporated PW tech for a while so my guess is the B1 uses a PW design for them.


Jan 31, 2015 at 07:02 PM
Paul Buff
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


Sheldon N wrote:
Greg, I think the new B1 HSS mode works just like conventional high speed sync does with Canon/Nikon speedlights. It is a pulsing series of flashes that last the duration of the exposure. This means a couple things...

It effectively becomes a continuous light source. Your flash power sets the lighting ratio of ambient to strobe, then shutter speed/ISO/Aperture are all about controlling depth of field or freezing motion and don't affect the lighting ratio at all.

Any concern about t.1 or t.5 times goes out the window. If you want to freeze action, you just increase your shutter speed
...Show more

The HSS 1f power loss occurs when HSS switches on at 1/250. From there, you lose an additional 1f for each doubling of exposure time - 2f at 1/500, 3f at 1/1000, 4f at 1/2000, 5f at 1/4000 and 6f at 1/8000..

-6f below 500Ws is a flashpower of about 8Ws so close light placement and/or very high ISO would be required . As I understand it it, once you are in HSS mode, raising shutter speed will not alter flash to ambient - they will both drop in the same proportion.

HyperSync has potentially less light loss, but is finicky and can result in dark and light exposure bands across the frame. HSS should be easier to use and result an less or no frame exposure artifacts.



Feb 01, 2015 at 12:56 AM
Sheldon N
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


Paul Buff wrote:
The HSS 1f power loss occurs when HSS switches on at 1/250. From there, you lose an additional 1f for each doubling of exposure time - 2f at 1/500, 3f at 1/1000, 4f at 1/2000, 5f at 1/4000 and 6f at 1/8000..

-6f below 500Ws is a flashpower of about 8Ws so close light placement and/or very high ISO would be required . As I understand it it, once you are in HSS mode, raising shutter speed will not alter flash to ambient - they will both drop in the same proportion.


Yes, but I wouldn't think of it in terms of only having 8 w/s or having to put your modifier really close or use high ISO in order to use it. The practical reason to increase power on a strobe when shooting outside is to change your lighting ratio against the ambient. As you point out, once you set your lighting ratio with HSS, it is fixed and shutter speed affects ambient/flash equally. The lighting ratio is set at a fairly decent power range, then you don't need to move your flash or adjust power as you adjust shutter speed.

Saying that you only get 8 w/s of power is the same as saying that the sun starts to get dim when you increase your shutter speed.



Feb 01, 2015 at 09:23 AM
Gareth Walker
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


When some genius finally cracks a global shutter on a FF CMOS sensor the world will be a happier place when it comes to high speed flash sync. Until that day I get the imperssion all the solutions we have today will work but under a very narrow criterial of situations and all have big limitations.


Feb 01, 2015 at 09:29 AM
Gareth Walker
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


When some genius finally cracks a global shutter on a FF CMOS sensor the world will be a happier place when it comes to high speed flash sync. Until that day I get the impression all the solutions we have today will work but under a very narrow criteria of situations and all have big limitations. Hats off to the strobe and trigger manufacturers for trying but they still don't replace the leaf shutter yet.


Feb 01, 2015 at 09:36 AM
Paul Buff
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


Sheldon N wrote:
Yes, but I wouldn't think of it in terms of only having 8 w/s or having to put your modifier really close or use high ISO in order to use it. The practical reason to increase power on a strobe when shooting outside is to change your lighting ratio against the ambient. As you point out, once you set your lighting ratio with HSS, it is fixed and shutter speed affects ambient/flash equally. The lighting ratio is set at a fairly decent power range, then you don't need to move your flash or adjust power as you adjust shutter
...Show more

The purpose of HSS is to freeze action. This is most commonly used in sports photography – which usually involves considerable distance from flash to subject. 8Ws of flashpower is just not going to do this job very well IMHO. The real solution is when camera makers wise up and start using leaf shutters or electronic shutters as Fuji has begun to make some inroads with.



Feb 01, 2015 at 05:02 PM
ukphotographer
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · HSS vs. No HSS for Action


Gregg Heckler wrote:
Someone correct me please if the new HSS technology will work at the shorter flash durations of the B1.


Fast (or short) flash durations form no part of HSS. Ironically, the OP states that he wants to "add drama" which is normally associated with overpowering ambient and being in control of lighting ratios to the benefit of the "drama adding" lighting - yet quotes shortest (or fastest) flash durations (at lowest power!?) - which would barely even meet "fill flash" requirements.

In HSS "Action stopping" is a shutter function NOT a flash function.

"I'm going to add drama in a cycling event using HSS with my XYZ lighting or use fast flash duration at lowest power" illustrates a clear misunderstanding of the real requirements needed, or a belief in the marketing material of a lighting manufacturer and product specifications.

At best.. great job by Profoto! At worst.. it's about time photographers got real and tried to understand the problems they face and equip themselves with the equipment which most benefits them in the situation(s) they are most likely to encounter or they choose to embark on producing.

There are workable solutions to the "adding drama with lighting, cycling.." scenario - but HSS wouldn't be the tool of choice. In some situations it could be made to work, but photography isn't supposed to be an exercise constrained to lighting capability which, at best is already compromised.




Feb 01, 2015 at 07:02 PM
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