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Archive 2015 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.

  
 
gordorad
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


I recently quoted a potential client what I felt was a very low bid. A bit of background info....I had done a bit of work for him in trade...(probably a mistake, but that was 3 years ago...of course, I felt they got a great deal....) They have a retreat with 8 cabins, and want 4 interior shots and an exterior of each cabin. About 45 shots in total. Of course I will have a place to stay, but will have to travel app. 500 miles RT.

My quote was $2400 for the images....no licensing, etc....I tried to make it simple, and what I feel is an extremely low bid. Of course, when does a client see it that way? He responded that it was too high, and would get back with me. Two weeks later he responded, "Can't afford it, how do we resolve" and then 30 minutes later, "your thoughts".....

Any suggestions??

Thanks.




Jan 01, 2015 at 04:52 PM
DougVaughn
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


I know it's a serious question, to which I don't have a seriously good answer. You'd like to tell him he can resolve it with his iPhone.


Jan 01, 2015 at 05:14 PM
chez
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


Sounds like it would be 3 days of work including travel. Only you can decide if 3 days or work plus one more for post processing is covered by $2,400.

If you decline this job...will you book the time with a higher paying gig? If not...then I'd say lower your price to $2,000 plus expenses.



Jan 01, 2015 at 06:33 PM
Lauchlan Toal
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


So is that $2400 for unlimited use, or $2400 shooting fee with licensing to be discussed? Because $2400 seems like a reasonable shooting fee, with probably a $12000 licensing fee (that's still lowballing) for unlimited, non-exclusive use. Of course, if this guy just has a small site that he wants some quick snaps for, $2400 for unlimited single website use plus shooting is an alright compromise. I'd inquire as to how he wants to use them, break down what the fee is for (say $400 travel, $750 day of post production, $500 proofing and ftp, etc.) and discuss how good promotional images can give him a competitive advantage which is worth paying for. It sounds like it's too late for this, but another powerful tool is to send in an estimate with the full price listed, then a deduction for his being a past client. So they see that they can get, say, a $3500 value service for $2400. Again though, this works best when it's the first thing you send. Bringing up the fact that you're doing him a favour might not go over so well after the fact, so it'd be a very tactful last resort kind of thing now. Good luck!


Jan 01, 2015 at 10:29 PM
leethecam
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


It would be interesting to see what price he was hoping for.

Many businesses just don't seem to understand the value of photography, and can't even calculate potential professional costs - which is crazy given tha they are in business themselves.

I had a company view my work and called me. I discussed my average day rate before going to their offices for a meeting. They wanted a day's work with full studio lighting on location, full retouching and an exclusive licence with no limits. They wanted me to better another quote, and so the price I had to beat...? £55 in total...! I said absolutely no chance and bit my tongue. The next week they were on the phone to renegotiate. Their offer... still £55

Did you do a breakdown on your quote. Otherwise some clients will just think "click click click" and $2400



Jan 02, 2015 at 01:52 AM
Paul Mo
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


Lauchlan Toal wrote:
So is that $2400 for unlimited use, or $2400 shooting fee with licensing to be discussed? Because $2400 seems like a reasonable shooting fee, with probably a $12000 licensing fee (that's still lowballing) for unlimited, non-exclusive use.


Are you suggesting $2400 + $12,000 for unlimited use of shots of cabins?



Jan 02, 2015 at 02:30 AM
nolaguy
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


You might tell him this:


"Dear Billy Bob,

I imagine your perspective is either 1) I genuinely can’t afford it; or 2) you gotta be kidding me, $2,400 for 50 snapshots?

If it’s the former, we have some history (which I value) so while I’d already taken that into account and quoted you a discounted rate, for you I’d be more than happy to do the work in two installments, $x,xxx now and the final payment of $xxx in x months when you’ve begun to see some return on your investment in exceptional images for your business. We’ve both seen how schlock photos can hurt rather than help companies like yours.


If your concern is the latter – how can 40 or 50 images cost so much?... man, I totally get it. It seems so simple to buy a nice camera, click a few images, send the files for a few hundred dollars and be done with it. Sort of like your cabin day rate of $135 and during off days when it’s vacant, someone wanting to rent it for $25 and not understanding why you simply can’t do that.

There are direct and indirect expenses in business most consumers can’t really fathom. Even if your potential $25 customer says “dude, down and dirty is fine, you don’t even need to clean the cabin for me” – your customer experience is your brand. Providing quick, shoddy accommodations isn’t acceptable to you.

Same here. If I’m going to do the job it’s going to include all my bells and whistles which includes sufficient post production work to make your accommodations look like the quality products/services they are, and my rates have to cover at least a portion of my overhead, just like your rates must cover your long term maintenance, liability insurance, etc.


Additionally, the photographer owns the copyright to the photos so projects like this typically involve licensing rights for the images defining how and for how long the shots can be used by the client. Given our history, neither you nor I want to mess with that so I haven't even addressed it. The images would be turned over to you with unlimited usage rights.



Anyway, my quote reflects my costs of doing business, our long term history and my appreciation of your interest. For you I’m comfortable offering the two installment payments if it helps you get what you want - and I hope you have an increasing awareness I’m not only not gouging you, but in my reduced quote, expressing my appreciation for our past collaborations and genuine eagerness to help make your business as successful as possible.

If we can work this out, rest assured I’ll rock your shots and the return on your investment will make you wonder why this was even a question.


Your bud,

gordorad"



Naturally, you have to assume you'll never see the second payment, but, this is one approach you might consider if it's worth it to you.

Regards,

Chuck



Jan 02, 2015 at 03:48 AM
chez
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


Personally if I could convince the customer at the $2,400 rate I would not worry about any usage fees. I estimate it will be a 36 hour job including travel and post processing...so that equates to $67/hour for the job...not a bad wage. Unless you have something more lucrative that weekend, I'd snap this up and not bother with any licensing or usage fees.


Jan 02, 2015 at 08:31 AM
gordorad
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


Yes, it was for unlimited use. Like so many "mom and pop" operations, they are, or at least pretend to be, uneducated buyers in commercial photography. What is the best way to state the obvious That one is getting these images for eternity. and not paying anything for extended use. For them to realize it is for a business, not personal use.

My first response was that if he average it over Five years, his cost was only .16 a day per cabin to use these images...or .03 an image. The avg. nightly rental is $130.00.

I really don't want to lower the price, as I really feel it is extremely low. So frustrating, as to how many people don't put a real value on professional imagery.






Jan 02, 2015 at 09:09 AM
Lauchlan Toal
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


Paul Mo wrote:
Are you suggesting $2400 + $12,000 for unlimited use of shots of cabins?


Yep. For unlimited, exclusive use of all images for eternity it'd probably be more realistic to quote $35000 usage, but I doubt that the cabin owner needs broadcast rights, or even print media rights.



Jan 02, 2015 at 09:24 AM
Lauchlan Toal
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


gordorad wrote:
Yes, it was for unlimited use. Like so many "mom and pop" operations, they are, or at least pretend to be, uneducated buyers in commercial photography. What is the best way to state the obvious That one is getting these images for eternity. and not paying anything for extended use. For them to realize it is for a business, not personal use.

My first response was that if he average it over Five years, his cost was only .16 a day per cabin to use these images...or .03 an image. The avg. nightly rental is $130.00.

I really don't
...Show more

I like your idea of showing the amortized cost over time. If he still doesn't understand the value you're bringing, I'd be very hesitant to work with him. I've shot for clients who didn't value what I provided them, and it's an utter pain. Saying no is also a great way to prove your value.



Jan 02, 2015 at 09:28 AM
chez
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


Lauchlan Toal wrote:
Yep. For unlimited, exclusive use of all images for eternity it'd probably be more realistic to quote $35000 usage, but I doubt that the cabin owner needs broadcast rights, or even print media rights.


Do that and you lose the job. Like I said...unless the OP has a bunch of better business options for the said weekend, $67/hour is not a bad rate.



Jan 02, 2015 at 09:29 AM
gordorad
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


nolaguy wrote:
You might tell him this:

"Dear Billy Bob,

I imagine your perspective is either 1) I genuinely can’t afford it; or 2) you gotta be kidding me, $2,400 for 50 snapshots?

If it’s the former, we have some history (which I value) so while I’d already taken that into account and quoted you a discounted rate, for you I’d be more than happy to do the work in two installments, $x,xxx now and the final payment of $xxx in x months when you’ve begun to see some return on your investment in exceptional images for your business. We’ve both seen how schlock photos
...Show more


Thanks....That is a very good rebuttal!!





Jan 02, 2015 at 09:47 AM
tdlavigne
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


Break down all your costs in an itemized list (no discount/friend/former rates either), factor in usage rights for however long he intended to use them (6mo, 1yr, unlimited, etc). Then simply remind him:

"This would be the full rate that I would quote anyone else, but I factored in our past relationship in the previous quote hoping to give you a better deal." in as nice a way as you can (ie don't just get straight into it and call him a cheap-ass, gotta blow some smoke up his butt first). Then be prepared to walk away.

If they can't begin to see the value of what you're providing...they never will. Educating them on costs, and trying to rationalize what you bring to the table and how it will help them long term will likely be an exercise in futility. Some people just aren't
"clients", let them find someone on Craigslist to do it for $100 and "exposure" and see how far that gets em.



Jan 02, 2015 at 11:37 AM
chez
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


tdlavigne wrote:
Break down all your costs in an itemized list (no discount/friend/former rates either), factor in usage rights for however long he intended to use them (6mo, 1yr, unlimited, etc). Then simply remind him:

"This would be the full rate that I would quote anyone else, but I factored in our past relationship in the previous quote hoping to give you a better deal." in as nice a way as you can (ie don't just get straight into it and call him a cheap-ass, gotta blow some smoke up his butt first). Then be prepared to walk away.

If they can't begin to
...Show more

Again, I wouldn't walk away because of the rights. I would treat this as a paid for job, travel down, take the photos and get at least $67/hour for your efforts. Sure beats watching reruns on tv...that's assuming the OP has nothing else to fill in this time in their schedule. I think people sometimes getnblinded by the rightsbto the photos and miss the forest for the trees. Give me $2400 for a weekends worth of work anyway.



Jan 02, 2015 at 11:52 AM
tdlavigne
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


chez wrote:
Again, I wouldn't walk away because of the rights. I would treat this as a paid for job, travel down, take the photos and get at least $67/hour for your efforts. Sure beats watching reruns on tv...that's assuming the OP has nothing else to fill in this time in their schedule. I think people sometimes getnblinded by the rightsbto the photos and miss the forest for the trees. Give me $2400 for a weekends worth of work anyway.


I think it's dependent upon the photographer. If they're used to making twice as much or more per gig...then 2400 is bordering on insult no matter how you look at it. If they're used to making 3k for the same, then I say go for it. It's not much less than you're used to. Or, if as you say they don't have anything booked for that month then the same applies. What I took from the OP was that it was a really low quote and that perhaps he was giving them a really good deal already (ergo he's probably used to getting much more). If that's the case I'd be wary about forming a habit of undercutting myself and devaluing my services.

Either way, $2400 is apparently way more than the client had in mind, and I wager they're probably another person who thinks anyone with a Canon Rebel or iPhone can take quality photos, or even more likely...wouldn't' know a quality photo if it bit them you know where. As such I bet that once this plays out they're probably thinking more along the lines of "We'll put you up for the weekend in one of our awesome cabins FREE, and we'll even take care of your meals...in exchange for the photos. We'll even throw in $500 for your time and travel". Hopefully I'm wrong and the OP can get a gig at a rate worth his time and skill, but I'm never overly optimistic when people balk at already lower than industry norm prices.








Jan 02, 2015 at 12:06 PM
gordorad
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


tdlavigne wrote:
I think it's dependent upon the photographer. If they're used to making twice as much or more per gig...then 2400 is bordering on insult no matter how you look at it. If they're used to making 3k for the same, then I say go for it. It's not much less than you're used to. Or, if as you say they don't have anything booked for that month then the same applies. What I took from the OP was that it was a really low quote and that perhaps he was giving them a really good deal already (ergo he's probably
...Show more


Some good points there. The client does appreciate good work. And I"ve no idea what they had in mind. Probably much lower as in the past I did it in trade. I provided them plenty of images for about 6 nights of "stay".three trips. ..always mid week, when occupancy was low....they were not losing any "full revenue".) I've been shying away from trade altogether, as it invariably seems both parties feel they are giving up more than the other. When in reality, (at least in my opinion).. .lodging trade never equals "parts and labor......time plus images.

I doubt they have any clue about industry norm pricing. As there are so many people willing to do it for nothing....and I like to say, you get what you pay for!

I sent off the reply. If I don't get the job, that is ok. I still think it is dirt cheap for unlimited usage.

Appreciate the comments!






Jan 02, 2015 at 12:43 PM
mdude85
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


I think you need to determine exactly the minimum price that you will settle for. You already stated that $2400 was a "very low bid" so that indicates that your minimum must not be very far off that. It's pretty simple. If you cannot afford to do the job for $2X00 (whatever the "X" happens to be), then you should kindly state that. Most likely the buyer is looking to negotiate, so ideally you can both agree on an acceptable price.

Some amount of marketing and selling your product is fine, but you have to be careful not to look desperate. A product sells for what it sells for -- you don't see clothing stores or plumbers or doctors advertising their goods and services in terms of how much daily value they can bring to their clients.

And it's also not your role to compare your photography services against the daily rate of a hotel room. That would be kind of an insulting move in my opinion. Especially since like them, you understand that there are many costs associated with running a business.



Jan 02, 2015 at 12:47 PM
jefferies1
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


I would call and find out what budget they were think for the project. If they say $300.00 then it is most likely a waste of time as they won't be going up close to asking price. If they have a number close to asking then work out what you can if you want the job.


Jan 02, 2015 at 02:34 PM
gordorad
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · When a quote is low, and the client thinks it is high....how to respond.


My quote was my price. I was looking for suggestion on how to respond which I feel NOLAGUY provided.

I don't like to play games when quoting things. Sure, I could have provided a higher quote, only to "discount it".....But that is not my style.

As to the analogy about a plumber....not sure that is applicable....unless I was in the business of pay toilets and it was an incoming producing ASSet. The images that will be provided will be in use everyday, as a tool to generate income.






Jan 02, 2015 at 03:04 PM
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