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Archive 2014 · "Somethings happen here …"

  
 
OntheRez
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · "Somethings happen here …"


I considered putting this in the Canon forum but figured there was more expertise here even though people use different types of equipment. I've studied the literature on the camera and up till now thought I had a handle on it.

I need some help in diagnosing poor focus. The following shots were all taken in the same game. Equipment was 1Dx with either a 135mm f/2.0L or the 85mm f/1.8. Av ranged between f/2.0 and f/2.4. Probably 90% of the shots were at f/2.2 with either lens.

Settings: Manual focus, Tv=1/800, ISO = 6400, (It's a really dark gym!), Ai Servo AF, Partial metering, AF point expansion surround. AF config tool = Case 4. High speed continuous shooting though I rarely shoot more than 3 in a row. I generally spot meter though will switch to surround on occasion. I back button focus.

I shoot for a small town newspaper, thus HS sports are important. This is the team's home gym. I normally expect to blow about 10% of my shots via missed focus. I lose another 20-40% just being focused in the wrong place, too late, whatever - just missed the shot. I'd say about 50% of the time I get a technically acceptable pix though of course most don't capture a peak moment.

I finished volleyball season 6 weeks ago in the same gym/same gear with generally acceptable results. Football was outside with tele and flash thus hard to compare.

In the last game (Friday) I was stunned to find that 50-60% of my shots were totally out of focus. No that's not correct. They were perfectly focused at some point (often at some distance) other than where my focus point was. I opened them in DPP so that I could see where Canon thought the focus point was. In many cases my focus point was exactly on the money but out of focus. In a few cases I was close with mixed results (some missed focused others caught the intended point.) I've attached 7 screen shots from DPP. The first four show the focal point right on the money with the subject completely blurred while the background is crisp. The final 3 are close with some being in focus while others aren't.

So is it time to put the 1Dx in the shop or am I really missing something here?

Thanks for any assistance.

Robert





Nailed action (missed ball). What's the ref doing there?







Again, on the money - more ref.







Nailed the break. Great shot of bleachers







Focus on back of player's head but caught the action.







Not nailed perfectly but should have gotten the player.




Dec 25, 2014 at 01:15 PM
OntheRez
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · "Somethings happen here …"


Two more shots showing a missed focus point. In the second the shooter is horribly out of focus. In the first he's fine. The focus point is almost exactly at the same point on the floor.

Robert





Red box on floor. Shooter fine.







Same spot - no joy.




Dec 25, 2014 at 01:19 PM
lhryshko
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · "Somethings happen here …"


Hi Robert,

Quick question? In every picture you've shown, the identical focus point was indicated by DPP. Is this true for all of your pictures or just fortuitously in the ones you are showing us? I'm asking this because there is no indication that your AF point expansion is working or set properly based on what you've shown.



Dec 25, 2014 at 01:30 PM
Russ Isabella
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · "Somethings happen here …"


Robert:

Couple of things. First, in most cases within your first post, the camera seems to be focusing where contrast is greatest and most clearly defined when, by contrast, the area closest to the selected focus point is darker, more 'muddy' and less well defined (and I don't mean in terms of sharpness, but in terms of the contrast provided between light and dark areas). Second, we don't know where your selected focus point was aimed prior to these frames, at the point when you were engaging and locking focus. So where the bleachers are in focus, for example, maybe as you were moving to follow the play, as you engaged focus, the bleachers were closer to the focus point than your intended subject. (This is why it always seems easier to shoot action coming toward you rather than shooting it from the side.)

I also wonder whether part of the problem here is that you have the surrounding points activated, which would serve to allow the AF system more 'leeway' in choosing for itself where to focus. Also relevant would be which Case you are using and/or which settings you have for the speed at which focus is shifted from one of your selected focus points to another and how quickly focus is set to change when something moves in front of your target.

There's never any harm in sending the camera in for a checkup, but I also would adjust your settings and see if things improve. Of course you've indicated that prior to this outing, the system was working better, so unless something changed (much darker gym, tweak of settings), it does seem that something has gone amiss.




Dec 25, 2014 at 01:36 PM
Paulthelefty
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · "Somethings happen here …"


I think it is important to realize you are showing an instant in time, which does not really give us any info on how you are tracking the subjects, who in almost every case appear to be moving. While the focus point is indeed on the intended subject, where was that point a millisecond prior? Based on your results with backgrounds nicely focused, I would presume the point was NOT on your intended target and that is where the camera locked.

In the first three, I can picture the scenario: tracking the player, he jukes, you don't, focus grabs something behind, and you're done. The third photo the point is on his lower leg...

4 through 6 you were tracking the ball, and even though in 6 he has moved past, the camera still had that focus point when you clicked. In 5, he checked up for the jump, and you tracked past him and that is when/where the camera focused. I am not super familiar with the 1DX surrounding point so focus, but this could be part of what is happening here as well. Theoretically the last shot should be fine with surround, but depending on how well you were tracking and when you started tracking, it may have tracked the background... My understanding is the camera will grab the center point and transfer that tracking to surrounding points , so if you happened to grab at that last one rather than steady tracking, it may have tracked the background intentionally.

It certainly is frustrating to come from a tough sport like volleyball where you think you have everything nailed, and find you are having all kinds of problems. I would suggest that basketball is harder ,because of the full court coverage, than volleyball which is mostly contained in a smaller area (depending on how you shoot and what you are trying to capture and how well you know the sport and the individual players, of course).

I honestly don't see anything unusual here, especially considering the lighting and as you say, the first games of the season so new players, and perhaps a bit of rustiness... :-)

Since I do not know the 1DX focusing system (still on a 7D), I cannot offer more advice on ideal setup, but I am sure others will chime in with what works for them. I do know for basketball I push my tracking faster and depending on where I shoot from, I may or may not adjust my tracking hold time faster than default. I almost always use single point, for me using surrounding points tend to jump off faster when I have other players crossing in front of my intended subject.

All IMHO...

Paul



Dec 25, 2014 at 04:28 PM
gschlact
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · "Somethings happen here …"


On the technical level, my suggestions are to check/make the following changes to your settings.
1. Set your Focus Priority for first and second Release instead of shutter priority
2. Set tracking sensitivity to - 2, this will keep focus O. Player even when you temporarily slip off.
3. If you were in expanded mode, reduce the AF point switching sensitiviy

Lastly, and unlikely, but if that gym is all fluorescent lighting, do a one shot (non servo) quick check of mfa. Some lenses are more sensitive to wavelength and could produce back focus in such lighting g.



Dec 25, 2014 at 07:58 PM
jrash168
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · "Somethings happen here …"


Maybe it was a typo on your part, but it says in your description of settings that you were in manual focus.


Dec 25, 2014 at 09:01 PM
TJ Asher
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · "Somethings happen here …"


Hey Robert,

I noticed a thread here recently that discussed a setting that may also be helpful:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1328215




Dec 26, 2014 at 09:10 AM
mikepmcs
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · "Somethings happen here …"


You were in Manual Focus according to your settings.
That would be 100% of the problem if this is accurate.



Dec 26, 2014 at 01:19 PM
CW100
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · "Somethings happen here …"


mikepmcs wrote:
You were in Manual Focus according to your settings.
That would be 100% of the problem if this is accurate.


yes, but it's hard to believe someone would not notice the lack of focusing when shooting







Dec 27, 2014 at 08:08 AM
OntheRez
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · "Somethings happen here …"


I appreciate all the responses. Let me clarify a few questions/answers. First Mike, I meant manual mode not focus. I'm really not quick enough to shoot sports via manual focus. It is perhaps relevant to note that I'm not new to shooting basketball nor to working in this gym. This is my 4th year shooting for this paper and I got the 1Dx last year part way into the BK season. So the problems I'm finding in focus aren't due to lack of experience/knowledge (though lord knows I can and hope will always improve.)

Ihryshko: Yes the center point shows up as the only selected focus point in all conditions. I never had the need to check before, but this is one of the things that concerns me.

Ggshlact: In the AF Configuration Menue (AF1) I have AF set to Case 4, Track at neutral, Accel/decel and +1, and AF pt Auto switch at 1. I'm not following where "Focus Priority" is set unless you are referring to AF1. I will kick AF pt switch to 0 and sees what happens.

TJ, checked that. It's off for me, but I'm not blessed with any great whites so I don't think it is at issue here.

Paul, definitely there can and often are issues with abrupt player movement change. In the first shot I can't see how anything I did in following the action could have produced a false focus. On 2 and 3, the focus point is not optimally at body center, but it does catch the subject. Can't see how this would throw focus all the way to the bleachers. 4 should have - to my mind focused on the player in front that is perfectly nailed by the focus point and is a solid color. 5, yeah, I don't know what Canon's algorithms in a complex case like this. Mostly on the red and white stripe but does touch the ref stripping. I guess we all know that every AF system known to man or woman instantly picks up any zebra in any situation 6 and 7 were included to show how I missed the focus in almost exactly the same place/way but got one in and one our of focus. I'm frustrated.

There is a beta version plug in for Lr that allows one to see the focus point from within the library module: lightroomfocuspointsplugin.com It allows Lr users to do what Adobe seems to think is too difficult - show where the focus point was. While the module is still in beta and has some usability issues, I highly recommend it. Like DPP it also reports that only one (the center point) of the AF points is in focus while the surrounding ones are active but not focusing. I've attached a screen clip of this tool's report.

You'll note in this faceoff image there are no issues with player movement, transitional zones, or some of the critical issues that Russ rightly notes could influence focus. I was kneeling courtside within 20' of the players and did a 3 shot burst. In all cases the players are blurred while the bleachers are perfect. Given this example, I cannot see how my problem is operator error or failure to get the focus point on the player(s).

I'm certainly not a photographer of the stature of some on this board, but after four years (and now a complete sports cycle with the 1Dx), I think I'm at least competent. I even managed to win an award for sports coverage statewide in small newspapers, so I've been working at it.

What prompted this post was that my now almost year old 1Dx shot thru all eight sports over the last year without this type of behavior. (Plus hundreds, thousands (?) wildlife and lanscape shots.) I would suspect the lens, but while the 135 is ancient (tho perfect in other situations), I also see the same results with a <1 year old 85mm f/1.8.

I've been waiting out the Xmas doldrum and will get on the phone with CPS. I suspect my cam is about to make a trip to Irvine though I'm still open to any suggestion available.

Again, thanks all,

Robert





Lr plugin report. Only movement is upward.




Dec 27, 2014 at 01:17 PM
gschlact
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · "Somethings happen here …"


Robert,
Don't forget to set the Track negative too for the times the Af point momentarily falls off intended player.

In your last example of the jump ball, notice the plug in's legend saying white+red-eye locked. I can see it locking more on the Bricks or horizontal bleacher than player. You were in full Zone here?

Personally, I have always found single point to be easier to accurately aim vs expanded mode . it is easier to see that you are on or off target IMHO.

There have been other posts the showed helper points with great contrast will win focus yet not show it via the Red square. . I believe you are experiencing some of this. A. So to remember, the actual focus point size is larger than the representation in the VF or do square represent ratio.

Give the settings change I suggested along with single point. I'll bet you a donut your intended AF will improve. No harm trying.



Dec 27, 2014 at 02:58 PM
schlotz
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · "Somethings happen here …"


Interesting that the app is indicating the 1DX was in 8 point assist. I might suggest changing this to 4 point surround assist. I've had some positive results with the 4 point assist.

Matt



Dec 27, 2014 at 03:39 PM
shelland
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · "Somethings happen here …"


Long shot here, but are you focusing with the shutter button or back-button focus? If back-button, are you keeping your thumb on the button the whole time? While it shows you are shooting servo, are you truly focusing the entire time?

I'm probably over simplifying, but to me it almost looks like your focus point is falling off the subject then you're moving it back at the last split second. And in that fraction of time, the focus hasn't caught back up to where the screenshots are showing it should be.



Dec 27, 2014 at 11:16 PM
Deborah Kolt
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · "Somethings happen here …"


In AI Servo, the 1DX (like previous bodies) only shows the point where exposure was initially acquired, so that frame is where you need to start to analyze the problem. I would limit your surrounding points to four and try working with Case 1 first as a control. (Peter Reed Miller said he shot the entire Olympics in Case 1 when the 1Dx first came out - it will work fine for basketball if your technique is good.) Are you panning as the player moves around the court? If so, you may be losing focus as you pan and just need more work on timing. And be sure you are giving the camera enough time to acquire focus initially.

It's also possible, of course, that your camera needs to be tweaked.




Dec 28, 2014 at 01:20 AM
ggreene
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · "Somethings happen here …"


It would be interesting to see where these frames fit into the sequence of shots taken. Were the ones before or after these frames OOF as well. Might give you more of a hint as to what is going on. With so many AF tunings on the 1DX it's hard to say.

I've set tracking sensitivity to -2 to give myself the most latitude for keeping the AF point on target. I especially notice this on equestrian jumping when doing side shots and the near jump post grabs the AF point as the horse is going over the jump. Even -1 seems inconsistent.

Also, as Deborah says, you need to give the AF that split second to lock on and figure out the movement.

Given that this is new behavior though I would say it would not hurt to talk to Canon.



Dec 28, 2014 at 07:45 AM
OntheRez
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · "Somethings happen here …"


Had a long talk with a Canon CPS rep yesterday and given that (1) the behavior occurs with multiple lenses, (2) I have a history of success with the camera, and (3) It seems to be a new phenomena I'm sending it in for service/repair. It's still under warranty.

Having said that I'll definitely be trying some of the suggestions from this thread. I think I used to shoot center point only (have always done back button focus) but went to surround when I started having trouble.

Update sometime later,

Robert



Dec 28, 2014 at 01:37 PM
Deborah Kolt
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · "Somethings happen here …"


Robert, I've found it helpful whenever a 1DX begins to act up to first try resetting the factory defaults. In fact, I never go out without the card with all my settings on it; I've been known to reset during halftime. This camera is like a PC running Windows: it needs to be restarted periodically.


Dec 28, 2014 at 03:01 PM
Deborah Kolt
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · "Somethings happen here …"


Let us know what you find out. One of my bodies was with the senior engineer in New Jersey for two weeks after a couple of trips didn't help. He found damage to the back of the mirror. It came back producing amazingly sharp images - better than new. Good luck!


Dec 28, 2014 at 03:07 PM





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