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Archive 2014 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300

  
 
WestcoastHD
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


Your right, if a D750 or better FX body drops to less than $1800 brand new, I'll buy one. Until then I would rather have a full featured pro DX body versus a bottom of the line D610 body if the price is similar.


Dec 18, 2014 at 02:32 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


snapsy wrote:
The D7100 has the extra resolution and the D810 addresses the buffer/build, so the unmet niche is limited to 24MP APS-C resolution *with* the buffer/build - again, IMO that's a very small market and one that Nikon doesn't think can be very profitably addressed. As for DX vs FX sales, just because the consumer/prosumer DX market is much larger doesn't mean we can extrapolate that the Pro DX market niche would still sizeable, esp in light of affordable FX. Both Thom and I put D800/E sales at somewhere around 500k-600k units, and he predicts the total line including the D810
...Show more

*******************************

But decent FX bodies are NOT selling for less than $1800 ... at least not anything that comes close to being a pro body.

And, your price drop argument is fallacious as it is the X-mas season and everything is on sale in one way or another ... including Nikon FX bodies.

Anyway .. this was not the point of this thread ... I was making a joke about naming. I'll agree to disagree on the demand for a high-end DX body.




Dec 18, 2014 at 03:48 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


Andre Labonte wrote:
*******************************

But decent FX bodies are NOT selling for less than $1800 ... at least not anything that comes close to being a pro body.

And, your price drop argument is fallacious as it is the X-mas season and everything is on sale in one way or another ... including Nikon FX bodies.

Anyway .. this was not the point of this thread ... I was making a joke about naming. I'll agree to disagree on the demand for a high-end DX body.


Mint used D800's with low mileage are selling for $1400 here on FM and a new D750 is only $500 more than Pro DX $1800 target. As for the 7DM2 price drop, it's not an X-mas season event - D750's aren't discounted anywhere and have been shipping for three months yet the 7DM2 has only been shipping half that time yet is already discounted $200 at multiple authorized dealers.



Dec 18, 2014 at 04:15 PM
Gary Irwin
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


snapsy wrote:
I've read all of Thom's articles about the D400 and have chatted with him at length about them via PM on dpreview. I predicted to him that when and if a D400 ever comes out that it would sell well initially for the first month or so and then sales would dry up once the pent-up diehard demand was satisfied, with total model sales being disappointing. I believe the same thing will happen with the 7DM2. With affordable FX now available the value proposition for pro DX is much more limited and niche vs when the D300 and 7D were
...Show more

There's some logic to this as, in the end, I believe Nikon's prediction that the future for DSLR's are indeed, FX, and DX will morph into some other format, sans mirror.

But right now my 7DII is my camera of choice -- it's still much faster than the D800/D810 in terms of FPS, has much superior AF (must be experienced to be believed) and still puts more pixels on the duck.



Dec 18, 2014 at 04:42 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


snapsy wrote:
Mint used D800's with low mileage are selling for $1400 here on FM and a new D750 is only $500 more than Pro DX $1800 target. As for the 7DM2 price drop, it's not an X-mas season event - D750's aren't discounted anywhere and have been shipping for three months yet the 7DM2 has only been shipping half that time yet is already discounted $200 at multiple authorized dealers.

********************

that's ripe. You compare used FX to new DX ... Please I could then just buy used DX and save even more money ... you are getting silly now.



Dec 18, 2014 at 05:11 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


Gary Irwin wrote:
There's some logic to this as, in the end, I believe Nikon's prediction that the future for DSLR's are indeed, FX, and DX will morph into some other format, sans mirror.

But right now my 7DII is my camera of choice -- it's still much faster than the D800/D810 in terms of FPS, has much superior AF (must be experienced to be believed) and still puts more pixels on the duck.



*****************

Gary -- I agree! DX is DX, mirror or not ... there's a high likelihood that over time even FX will morph to mirrorless as mirrorless tech gets better. That does not change the fundamentals that there are huge cost delta's between FX and DX and there will always be a place for a smaller sensor in exchange for higher performance in other areas. The question is what companies will fill the niches.



Dec 18, 2014 at 05:13 PM
Amrit
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


I think Nikon just missed the boat a few years ago. If they had introduced a d400 with the 16 megapixel Sony sensor at the time, it would have been an instant win. Today, I dont think they have tot bother anymore.

And mirrorless, mweh, SLR's still have one tremendous advantage over the mirrorless offerings, they have absolutely gorgeous OPTICAL viewfinders.

The Fuji X-Pro, now thats a different story. I'll spend my saved money for the D400 on the Xpro2, if it ever comes ...



Dec 18, 2014 at 05:28 PM
MitchSC
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


Fx and Dx each have their place in my bag. Sort of like a 14oz or 20 oz hammer, depends on what I want to nail.


Dec 18, 2014 at 06:01 PM
whumber
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


snapsy wrote:
Mint used D800's with low mileage are selling for $1400 here on FM and a new D750 is only $500 more than Pro DX $1800 target. As for the 7DM2 price drop, it's not an X-mas season event - D750's aren't discounted anywhere and have been shipping for three months yet the 7DM2 has only been shipping half that time yet is already discounted $200 at multiple authorized dealers.


Aside from the $600 discount on the D750/24-120 kit?



Dec 18, 2014 at 06:16 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


Andre Labonte wrote:
********************

that's ripe. You compare used FX to new DX ... Please I could then just buy used DX and save even more money ... you are getting silly now.


A used D800 beats a non-existent D400. Used D750's should hit the $1800 price point within the next few months.



Dec 18, 2014 at 07:13 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


whumber wrote:
Aside from the $600 discount on the D750/24-120 kit?


That's one of those Nikon faux discounts to sell some lenses that otherwise don't sell at retail prices



Dec 18, 2014 at 07:14 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


It's all a matter of perspective, I suppose. When you only like FX, there isn't a DX camera that is worth spit, at least to you. Others may have different opinions.

I have several FX cameras and several DX cameras. Each have their own place for my use. My d800 isn't better than a d400, even one that doesn't exist, for my needs. Instead of a d800, I'd much rather use a d300, d7000 or d7100, depending on what I want to do.

What I don't do, is use a d800 and pretend that it's as good as a high speed DX camera is or should be. I use the d800 for what it was intended, ie landscapes, portraits and other similar scenes. I don't think that it works well at all, as a DX camera and I certainly wouldn't advocate its use as a DX substitute, even at the rather remarkable used prices. As good as those prices are, they aren't even close to the new, let alone used prices of a d7100 or d7k. Either one of those are much better DX cameras than the d800 is in DX mode, IMO.

Kerry



Dec 18, 2014 at 08:26 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


Kerry Pierce wrote:
It's all a matter of perspective, I suppose. When you only like FX, there isn't a DX camera that is worth spit, at least to you. Others may have different opinions.

I have several FX cameras and several DX cameras. Each have their own place for my use. My d800 isn't better than a d400, even one that doesn't exist, for my needs. Instead of a d800, I'd much rather use a d300, d7000 or d7100, depending on what I want to do.

What I don't do, is use a d800 and pretend that it's as good as a high
...Show more

Thanks Kerry. What specifically about the D800 makes it a lesser DX camera for you vs a D300/D7100. Ergonomics? Speed? AF? Buffer? Btw I like the D7100 - I think it's a great camera and an incredible value for what they sell for now.



Dec 18, 2014 at 08:49 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


whumber wrote:
Aside from the $600 discount on the D750/24-120 kit?


or a $400 discount on D610



Dec 19, 2014 at 09:46 AM
Kerry Pierce
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


snapsy wrote:
Thanks Kerry. What specifically about the D800 makes it a lesser DX camera for you vs a D300/D7100. Ergonomics? Speed? AF? Buffer? Btw I like the D7100 - I think it's a great camera and an incredible value for what they sell for now.


Cost would be the first thing. Second would be the viewfinder in DX mode, which I think is terrible to use, by comparison. A DX viewfinder is magnified, showing you the entire image to be captured, which makes it much easier to keep the AF point where I want it.

There's simply no comparison to the d300 as a speed camera. The d7100 is not as good as the d300, in that respect, nor is the body as good as either the d300 or d800, but it's still a much better DX camera. The d7100 gives you 24mp vs the 15.5mp of the d800 DX mode, giving a lot more pixels on subject. Properly configured, with fast SD cards, the d7100 is a fairly good speed camera.

Even the d7000 is a better DX camera, in most cases, simply because of the viewfinder issues. The d800 AF is better at times, but not enough to cause me to choose it over the d7000. But, that issue goes away with the d7100. Lastly, the cost differences are quite significant.

WRT the notion that Nikon won't make a d400 due to the small market, that's something that is blown away by the Df. If they were worried about market segment size, they wouldn't offer a Df.

As a side note, I think that they haven't offered a d400 because they want to sell FX cameras and don't want a high end DX camera taking away sales from the cheaper FX models. Assuming that the d400 would sell at or below $1800 US, the profits per unit on a d400 would not be as high as they are on any of the FX cameras, not to mention the fact that they would likely sell more lenses to new FX buyers.

Did I mention cost? Even the cheapest, used FX cameras cost more than any of the DX cameras, NIB. The difference is still significant when comparing used vs used prices.

I agree, the d7100 is an excellent value today. I just bought a refurb d810, for $2609. It's a nicer camera than the d800, in several ways, but at MSRP, I certainly wouldn't call it an excellent value.

Kerry



Dec 19, 2014 at 12:21 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


Kerry Pierce wrote:
Cost would be the first thing. Second would be the viewfinder in DX mode, which I think is terrible to use, by comparison. A DX viewfinder is magnified, showing you the entire image to be captured, which makes it much easier to keep the AF point where I want it.

There's simply no comparison to the d300 as a speed camera. The d7100 is not as good as the d300, in that respect, nor is the body as good as either the d300 or d800, but it's still a much better DX camera. The d7100 gives you 24mp vs
...Show more

I actually meant to include the VF difference in my list of questions - I understand how crop lines on FX aren't great vs framing on a DX body - that would annoy me too. As for cost difference I think that's where a used D800 @ $1400 makes a lot of sense, at least for those comfortable buying used. I definitely agree that Nikon strongly prefers selling FX cameras, both for margins on the camera itself but also for FX lens sales.



Dec 19, 2014 at 01:29 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · We have it all wrong, it's the D7300


Kerry Pierce wrote:
...

As a side note, I think that they [Nikon] haven't offered a d400 because they want to sell FX cameras and don't want a high end DX camera taking away sales from the cheaper FX models. Assuming that the d400 would sell at or below $1800 US, the profits per unit on a d400 would not be as high as they are on any of the FX cameras, not to mention the fact that they would likely sell more lenses to new FX buyers.

...

Kerry


********************************
Unfortunately I think you have hit the nail on the head in terms on Nikon's thinking. It's become clear that they see things like this:

DX = Consumer
FX = Enthusiast & Pro

In which case the D7100 to D610 makes the perfect transition in all ways except price point.

Personally, I think this is wrong headed thinking on Nikon's part because clearly there are enthusiast and pros that desire and are in some cases better served by DX. It also leaves a huge price point hole of $1000 in the line-up ($600 with the current D610 discounts).

As for the whole "it will cannibalize FX sales" argument, I'm not sure if Nikon is thinking that way or not, but I find that to also be a wrong headed way of thinking. Far better to self cannibalize a small bit than to leave holes in the line-up that cause people to either wait or move to a different system.

As far as profits go, I think the margin on a pro DX body would be just fine as the sensor is a huge part of the cost.

Also, while I think a D400 would be nice, I would be fine with them doing something like what they did with the D750. With the exception of the body build, the D750 essentially is the D700 replacement in terms of performance and specs. Now if Nikon would do the same with a D7200, I think a lot of the high-end DX desire would be satiated. Heck, Nikon had that chance with the D7100 and killed it with the pathetic buffer. They could have even offered two versions of the D7100, call the 2nd one a D7110 with a decent buffer and a few other upgrades and charge $300 or $400 more for it.





Dec 20, 2014 at 08:56 AM
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