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Archive 2014 · Hockey and Strobes Questions

  
 
Trevorma
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


I am no stranger to shooting hockey...... that said I am a stranger to the strobed hockey game. So I have a hand full of questions and would love some advice from the folks here who might have some advice or experience to offer.

The deal: I, along with a buddy have been asked to shoot a local tournament in a pretty dark arena. We have shot here in the past and have been at 1/800th, ISO 4000-6400 @ 2.8. Not bad, but not great.

Our thoughts were to add some strobes to get better (read cleaner) shots.

I can rent some Profoto D1 Air 1000ws strobes with a flash duration of 1/1800th of a second, however I will be limited to shooting at 1/250th on my D3s using pocketwizrd Plus III's.

From what I can gather I need to over power the ambient light in order to stop the action at 1/250th on the shutter. Is 1000 ws at 1/1800th enough power / speed to accomplish this?

The tournament will run on two sheets of ice and I am going to bring in two sets of 2 lights and light one end in each rink.

I have the insurance in place, and I have priced it so that I will recover the expense of the strobes. I am also building in to this a one night trial to make sure in advance we can get this to work, I just want to bounce ideas off of folks here and make sure I show up to the trial with a plan and not fumbling around in the dark so to speak..

Thoughts? Questions? Advice? should I just pull the plug and shoot without the lights? Any help is appreciated.

Trevor



Dec 03, 2014 at 10:10 AM
tkbar2
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


What's your plan for mounting the strobes? Location, distance, durability, and access through the game?


Dec 03, 2014 at 09:37 PM
tjk60
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


The flash stops the action. What you are quoting is the t0.5 number of 1/1800 what you need to find is the t.1 length. To get faster recycle time you'll need to lower the power on the strobes and in doing so, you'll lengthen the flash duration. Only a test will really reveal that you can stop action with those lights, but I'd wager that you can dial them in.


Dec 03, 2014 at 10:19 PM
Trevorma
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


As far as setup is concerned, the arenas are almost identical. Stands on one side and benches on the other. Fans can't access ice level so I was going to set up strobes on 10 foot light stands, and bounce them off the ceiling. Ceilings are about 25 feet high. I have cables and sand bags ect, but the public is not allowed in the area the strobes will be set up. I also have access to outlets so no battery power needed other than for my PW's if I go that route instead of the Profoto Air system.....

The t0.1 is roughly 3 times that of the t0.5, so by my math that sets the t0.1 at 1/600th for the D1 1000ws strobe.



Dec 04, 2014 at 10:16 AM
mikepmcs
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


If you use the profoto air system then you should be able to use the strobes as big fill and you control the shutter speed on your camera. I messed with my tt1's and tt5's and I can high speed sync my crappy slow ultra 1800's to whatever I want like a speedlite so I imagine the profoto system is programmable? I don't use them for games but if I had to go to light up a dungeon should the need arise and keep high shutter speeds.
So your shutter speed on the camera would once again be in control of the stopping power. If the t1 of the profoto system drags to 1/600th it won't matter because your curtain would have closed by then anyway and you don't see the rest of the flash duration.
I don't know anything about PW 3's, I use multi max and tt1's and 5's. So, if you can't program the PW 3's, can you program the Profoto radio system is my first question. If so, your problem is pretty much solved in my opinion you just need to dial it in.



Dec 04, 2014 at 10:49 AM
timgangloff
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


I am not great at higher math, so this is what I do when I strobe basketball. Set strobes to maximum power and bounce off ceiling. Take a picture with strobes off and adjust settings to where you are just barely getting a completely dark or nearly dark frame. Then turn strobes on. If they are powerful enough, you will get a much brighter frame. Adjust settings (ISO and aperture) to get a well-exposed frame with strobes firing. Then turn off transmitter and fire another shot to make sure your settings changes did not allow any additional ambient in and you still have a dark frame. If you get a really bright frame with your strobes firing, you can alternately decrease their power level, which will give you a faster flash duration time. Sometimes you need full power to overcome ambient depending on how much you lose with the bounce (ceiling color, obstacles, etc.)

In my HS gym, it is 1/500, 2.8 and ISO 8000. Dark and miserable. But, with 3 AB800s (covering 1/2 of the court) and a flash on camera (also bounced), I can get, ISO 320, 3.5 and 1/300 and get nicely lit images. The ceiling is kind of dingy white and few obstacles. It is about 30 feet above the court. I mount my strobes about 15 feet above the court on balcony level railings and bounce at an angle.

Sometimes, if your strobes are not powerful enough, you might not get a completely dark frame with your new settings and you may have to do some fine tuning. You can add more strobes if you have them. Even a flash on camera bounced helps. In your case, the darker the arena the better as you have less ambient to overcome. Typically, I only light one end of the basketball court or maybe 2/3s of it.

Forget about your shutter speeds and shoot your sync speed of 1/250. The flash duration will stop the action. I looked at the specs for the b1 air and they are fast and should have no trouble stopping the action (or at least most of it).




Dec 04, 2014 at 02:19 PM
Trevorma
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


First off thanks everyone for the tips and thoughts.

Tim, I think my issue is I am good at higher math and that is causing the issues !!! I try to apply an engineering mind to everything. I think I like your "just try it" method.

I think my plan was to only set up for one end of the ice so maybe 3 strobes in a pinch.

I will be sure and post some feedback when I do the test... probably just before xmas.

Thanks again guys!



Dec 04, 2014 at 02:23 PM
rsartin
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


Tim's "just try it" method is dead on. There's no way I am going to try to account for the reflectivity of the ceiling, amount of rafters, etc. and try to figure out every venue. I've shot everything from D1 on down using the method that Tim describes. Shoot it, adjust, shoot it, adjust again if needed and move on


Dec 04, 2014 at 02:53 PM
mikepmcs
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


Decreasing power levels will actually lengthen the flash duration on strobes that employ variable voltage technology. If the D1's use the same tech as speedlights, IGBT, then what Tim said is accurate.
You will get motion blur with a sync speed of 250 and strobes that have lengthy flash durations shooting hockey.
I see the blur with the team photographer that shoots the maine red claws as his White lightnings don't have what they need to stop the action sometimes. Most of his shots are very acceptable and he is a very good photographer but technology doesn't care if the speed is moving faster than the flash duration.
Shoot 250 without big heads and packs in a fast moving sport(hockey being the fastest) and you will get photos that lack in sharpness or call it blur or call it whatever. It will happen.
The Einstein 640 was made with speedlight technology so it has faster duration when decreasing power.
I'm a big fan of the try it and see as well so please tell us how it went and what ended up working. I'm very interested.



Dec 04, 2014 at 03:01 PM
amlsml
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


Trevor, would like to know how this goes. What will you do for WB? With ambient only, I use the dirty ice, PRE custom setting. If you are dumping ambient, will you change WB to kelvin and whatever the strobe is pushing?

Wondering if the PW and the Einstein's set to lower power,( faster recycle ) might work better?Setting the camera to FP and allowing the shutter to still freeze, just using the strobe for a kiss? I am also experimenting, so asking the same question. Currently I can shoot 1/800 at 8000 at 2.8, or 640 at 6400 at 2.8 with pretty good results after some PP.

There was a guy named Pshizzy who used to be a regular here. He had some really great speed light and Einstein set ups for hockey. I will see if i can find them.



Dec 05, 2014 at 09:02 AM
Trevorma
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


I don't have access to anything but Profoto, Enlichrom (SP), and Bowens strobes. I am renting, so I am limited to my options (not renting from a US place either as customs would have a field day with me ). I have 5 pocketwizard Plus III's so they are limited to 1/250th.

Lots of things getting in the way I know.....

My plan is to start out at a custom WB..... I have shot this arena before and know what to set my WB too, then I will try to the flash WB rating and see what looks best.

I think, based on some ROUGH math, again my stinking engineering brain here, I am going to be at 1/250th, ISO 400, f4 with 3 strobes lighting on end of the rink...... again rough guess here but I will update this after my test run.




Dec 05, 2014 at 09:07 AM
timgangloff
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


When I strobe, I am shoot raw and don't worry about custom WB until I am doing post. I've found that instead of shooting 500 images at a basketball game, when I strobe, I may end up with 75 good shots. These are quick to edit in Lightroom and export out for web sales, printing or whatever. I'd suggest that what your prior WB was will be irrelevant as you will have almost no ambient light, so the WB will be that of your strobes. For example, depending on conditions, my AB800s are usually around 4500 to 5500 depending on ceiling colors, etc. The lights you use will probably say what their temperature is set at or near. Better lights are pretty constant, but will be affected by what you are bouncing them off of.

Looking forward to your results.



Dec 05, 2014 at 09:23 AM
gene2632
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


My own limited experience with bouncing strobes for hockey and hoops is you do lose some of the effective flash duration speed. Every building is different, every ceiling is different so you need to play with it before hand. Typically 10 foot stands are not high enough to go direct. Doing a custom white before hand, especially when shooting a large event is always a smart move, it means less post processing time when you are done shooting.


Dec 12, 2014 at 12:23 AM
Crossczechfoto
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


I want to throw my hat into the conversation.

First...

If you are going to set up 4 lights per rink and will be shooting only one end, place two of them at the goal line and the other two at the center line.

This will give you plenty of coverage for what you want.

Second...

The other big question I have for you is what level of hockey are you shooting? (no one has asked this question)

Mites, Pee Wee's, Bantams, Midgets?

Realistically Bantams and below you can stop action with 1/1000 to 1/1200 of a second and be just fine.

Third...

Before you fire even one strobe set your camera to exactly what you will be shooting when you do fire the strobe as what you want is to just barely see any of the players on the ice (this eliminates ghosting).

Fourth...

You should want to really shoot at f/5.6 with your strobes. Are you shooting through glass or have access to the benches or are you shooting over the glass?

You don't need to really be at all above ISO 400.

It's late (and I shot the St. Louis vs. Colorado Avalanche game last night and I'm tired) so I will add some more into the conversation as I know I have more to add I'm just beat!!!

Ross



Dec 14, 2014 at 03:52 AM
tjk60
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


Trevorma wrote:
As far as setup is concerned, the arenas are almost identical. Stands on one side and benches on the other. Fans can't access ice level so I was going to set up strobes on 10 foot light stands, and bounce them off the ceiling. Ceilings are about 25 feet high. I have cables and sand bags ect, but the public is not allowed in the area the strobes will be set up. I also have access to outlets so no battery power needed other than for my PW's if I go that route instead of the Profoto Air system.....

The t0.1
...Show more

After reading this, make sure you have insurance. Things happens....




Jan 03, 2015 at 11:17 PM
pat.kane
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Hockey and Strobes Questions


From Trevor's first post

Trevorma wrote:
[...] I have the insurance in place [...]





Jan 04, 2015 at 08:32 AM





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