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Archive 2014 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …

  
 
Emile Gregoire
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


I get your drift but here's a couple of considerations:

1. before the advent of MFA we had to hand over our camera/lens combinations to Canon if they didn't play nice together; now we don't as we can fix things ourselves;

2. with high megapixel cameras we see a lot better the imperfections between body and lens than we used to;

3. rough handling during transport might put a lens out of whack no matter the amount of QC of any manufacturer;

4. tighter quality margins and less out of focus problems out-of-the-box come at a price that not likely many people are willing to pay, at least while MFA is an option;

5. let's not act as if every lens front-focusses on every 7D II;

6. since you asked, in my experience a lot of cars leave the plant with some minor problem. If there were a knob with which to fix those problems, I'd vastly prefer that over having to bring it in and being without the car for a day.



ppmax wrote:
please show evidence that MFA was added for this reason...and not as a cost saving measure to reduce the amount of in warrantee service work being performed because of poor QA and/or sloppy manufacturing?

Out of curiosity, if you bought a brand new car with fuel injection, and they gave you a little knob to tune it, would you want to drive a car off the lot that NEEDED to be tuned right off the bat?

That's how you lose customers, not keep them. You can't have a crappy out of box experience...its death in consumer electronics, especially in the internet
...Show more



Nov 30, 2014 at 09:23 AM
Zenon Char
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


Those are all valid points. About not every lens FF the 7D2? All mine did because it is not a lens issue, it is camera problem. MFA is a wonderful tool but IMO is there like you mentioned helps you get the most out of your lens and camera combo.

Obviously this is a black and white topic just like the dreaded protective filter subject. Some people have no issues turning the knob but others want it to be correct. I don't mind taking it to the dealership, getting a shuttle ride to where I need to go and get it corrected so I get what I payed for.

My point being is I don't care what other people do. If your choose to MFA 15 + or - just to get to it focus properly that is great. I have a feeling (and not only at FM) people like us that are not happy and choose not to correct for Canon's mistake are stupid for sending it in for calibration because MFA is available. I believe that any lens and camera combo should come out of the box you should be able to go to your kids recital and get a decent set. You can later choose to MFA and tighten it up and add your TC's, etc. Like I said I have 9 years of various body and lens combos and I can produce hundreds of tack sharp images with very little MFA to none at all.

Canon is a huge profitable organization. There is variation in every manufacturing process with upper and lower spec limits and it is not impossible to produce products so that each unit is within spec. It is just takes a lot of effort and resources, which they have.

I worked in manufacturing for 35 years and we went through all the quality initiatives so I understand this stuff. No matter how much you plan and prepare there are some days you don't want to know what goes on. Canon's bad day on the manufacturing line is not my problem.



Nov 30, 2014 at 10:13 AM
Zenon Char
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


About this line "No matter how much you plan and prepare there are some days you don't want to know what goes on."

As much as we liked things to be perfect there were deadlines, pressure from sales, there was always some un unanticipated delay so there was more pressure to produce to meet the shipping date. Normal day to day stuff was fine and like everywhere else had occasional hiccups but if something was going to wrong it would be on a new product release and sometimes an occasional out of spec unit would slip through.



Nov 30, 2014 at 10:20 AM
Imagemaster
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


ppmax wrote:
please show evidence that MFA was added for this reason...and not as a cost saving measure to reduce the amount of in warrantee service work being performed because of poor QA and/or sloppy manufacturing?


Please show us evidence that it was not added for this reason.



Nov 30, 2014 at 10:30 AM
jcunwired
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


I think MFA is a fine tool, however I have to wonder whether its existence allows Canon to relax QA processes by expanding the margin of design and manufacturing error and forcing final accuracy on the consumer. With the original 7D nightmare I went through (one I'm reminded of every time I pick it up), despite sending body and lens combinations to Canon service center my gear came back with the blanket "within spec" excuse while anyone but the legally blind could see it was incapable of consistently capturing an image in focus. Without MFA I'd bet those acceptable specifications might force Canon back to the drawing board.


Nov 30, 2014 at 10:42 AM
Zenon Char
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


Well Canon only exists for one reason - to make a profit for the stakeholders.

Even though people use it and are happy with the results I have never really warmed up it. Mainly because when it first came out all these various methods and procedures. As if I would print out a scale, put it on a 45 degree angle and calibrate $5000 precision equipment. Obviously there are far more sophisticated methods these days but it was sure nuts back then.

Chuck Westfall stated during an interview to MFA at no less than 50X the focal length. This document supports that.

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/quickguides/CDLC_Accurate_EOS_AF_QuickGuide.pdf

However this supports what the manual states. On page 6.

• Shoot test pictures using the lens(es) you normally use, and at the distances you typically use them.

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/af_microadjustment_article.shtml

So which one do I use? 50X or MFA at the location? The manual also states you it does normally not need this and can cause AF issues.

When first came out it was like buying a new car. It explained how to change the oil but it did tell you what type of oil to use so you had to spend a month on the internet to research and get peoples opinions on what was best. Also I find a little humour with this - everyone tells people to read their manual - just ignore the warnings on the MFA page

Again I think it is a great tool for what it was designed for. I know don't tow the MFA line 100% and I have paid the price but I'm not afraid to ask these questions and make observations.



Nov 30, 2014 at 11:36 AM
chez
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


If all my lenses would require major MFA adjustments on a new camera...that new camera would be heading back. I understand about manufacturing tolerances and I understand manufacturing lemons. I think it is total BS to MFA at your most used distance...what about other distances, are they not important as well?


Nov 30, 2014 at 11:49 AM
Jefferson
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


… I think I may just get another 1Ds2 and an 85L f/1.2 II (may look at renting 85s with the option to buy) … then take pictures.
A 5Dc and a pair of 1Ds2’s ain’t that bad a deal to live with …

I think having to adjust a $1000 + camera out of the box at the frequency that seems to be occurring … and this looks to be a trend recently … with a few exceptions like maybe some 50Ls. But that may be because the lens is much harder to use to get the results it was intended to produce … very fast glass is a special case … the 7DII is not a special case. It is aimed at a consumer market for the most part … and being that … should function correctly out of the box … and Canon needing to wait for a tool … yea, OK … and not anticipating a failure rate that seems to be becoming prevalent …

That tells me that the work that should be done to be able to take some pride in ones work is a fading thing … and not caring lends itself to poor workmanship … and maybe a lot of 7DII’s not being right … ?

Jefferson …



Nov 30, 2014 at 11:54 AM
Zenon Char
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


It is a pride thing but also the world of modern manufacturing. I know Toyota has had some recalls which I will come back to but it established a manufacturing model that the world had to follow or continue to fall behind.

The Toyota manufacturing has 7 deadly wastes and one is QC at the end of the line. It requires storage space, it is a bottle neck so it slows the product getting out to market and people doing QC make mistakes. Can you imagine doing that all day?

The goal is to incorporate QC during production process so by the end there is no need for it. Theoretically all units are to spec and many companies have done it but like I said it requires a lot of effort and resources. I don't know what Canon does or what type of QC they have at the end if any or what they test.

Toyota admitted they grew too quickly and lost some of those principles. It also requires monitoring your supplier so parts come in within spec because they are trying to save money and try to get away with things if you don't pay attention. It is pretty complicated and has many layers.



Nov 30, 2014 at 12:32 PM
Zenon Char
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


As for the QC at the end. It could be just a visual inspection for damage, the Q screen and all the menus come up, shutter fires when you press the button and an image shows up on the LCD. Maybe that is it? I can't see any camera manufacturer putting a lens on every unit and putting it through sharpness tests.


Nov 30, 2014 at 01:00 PM
Jefferson
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


… I would think that 1 in 10 cameras would get close inspection and after 500 or so … if there were a problem … it would show.
You want your product to work as expected … if not for the “pride” … for the bottom line …

Jefferson ...



Nov 30, 2014 at 01:06 PM
Zenon Char
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


Yep, sampling is the ticket and the heartbeat of statical process control but it appears some got out there.


Nov 30, 2014 at 01:18 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


Zenon Char wrote:
Well Canon only exists for one reason - to make a profit for the stakeholders.


I read this a lot, and not just in reference to Canon, but to all businesses and corporations.

It is certainly true that for-profit companies must, over the long term, make a profit in some way if they intend to continue to exist. However, I think it is a bit too cynical to think that the profit motive and nothing else is always the sole motivation for doing whatever it is that the company does.

One check on this is to think about your own world. The answer will likely be different from person to person, but is your only motivation in your professional life that fact that you get a paycheck? For photographers, is your only motivation for being in the business of photography the money you will make. (If it is, you might want to look into another field... ;-)

I know that there are corporations at which the profit motive can and does cause the company to act irresponsibly and even unethically, but in quite few cases it is more of a balancing act between the undeniable importance of profit and the company's (or the individual business owner's) principles and pride and values. Just because (clearly, and with no argument from me) profitability is central to a company's success, it does not follow that nothing else is important.

Take care,

Dan



Nov 30, 2014 at 01:57 PM
ahender
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


chez wrote:
If all my lenses would require major MFA adjustments on a new camera...that new camera would be heading back. I understand about manufacturing tolerances and I understand manufacturing lemons. I think it is total BS to MFA at your most used distance...what about other distances, are they not important as well?


The only cameras that have MA that I have owned are the 7D and 7D mkII.

The 7D required MA for the 70-200 2.8 IS, 70-200 2.8 IS II, 300 f4, and 17-40 (all my lenses).

I've owned the 300D, 1D, 1D mkIIn, 7D, 7D mkII.

I know I will get killed for this comment.

The sharpest lens/camera combination using AF I have ever owned was the 300D with the 300 f4.






Nov 30, 2014 at 02:33 PM
chez
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


gdanmitchell wrote:
I read this a lot, and not just in reference to Canon, but to all businesses and corporations.

It is certainly true that for-profit companies must, over the long term, make a profit in some way if they intend to continue to exist. However, I think it is a bit too cynical to think that the profit motive and nothing else is always the sole motivation for doing whatever it is that the company does.

One check on this is to think about your own world. The answer will likely be different from person to person, but is your only motivation in
...Show more

Yeh, tell that story to the stock holders of Canon. There is only one reason why I invest my money into a stock...to make a profit. Sure, if a company has unethical practices, I'll look elsewhere, but when I put my money into a stock, I do it with the assumptions I'll make money from that investment.



Nov 30, 2014 at 03:21 PM
ahender
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …




chez wrote:
Yeh, tell that story to the stock holders of Canon. There is only one reason why I invest my money into a stock...to make a profit. Sure, if a company has unethical practices, I'll look elsewhere, but when I put my money into a stock, I do it with the assumptions I'll make money from that investment.


Bloomberg analyzed the net income of all S&P 500 companies. 95% of net income was spent on stock buybacks and bonuses.



Nov 30, 2014 at 03:35 PM
Zenon Char
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · … My 7DII Focus Problem Theory …


gdanmitchell wrote:
I read this a lot, and not just in reference to Canon, but to all businesses and corporations.

It is certainly true that for-profit companies must, over the long term, make a profit in some way if they intend to continue to exist. However, I think it is a bit too cynical to think that the profit motive and nothing else is always the sole motivation for doing whatever it is that the company does.

One check on this is to think about your own world. The answer will likely be different from person to person, but is your only motivation in
...Show more

Good points. There were a lot hard good hard working people at the plant that cared about what they were producing but when push comes to shove. We had a pre owned press install I was co-odinating the training. Mechanical issues put us behind and then some sales genius squeaked a job in before the official start date. I was training while there were welding sparks falling behind me. We did not even get one hour of the promised testing we were supposed to have and it was the most complex configuration sales could have found. That is reality. It was a disaster. They mean well but they never really learn.



Nov 30, 2014 at 04:11 PM
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