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Archive 2014 · Leica 90's

  
 
Lee Saxon
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Leica 90's


The "old" Summarit 2.5's are on sale now that the "new" Summarit 2.4's are available. I'm considering a 90.

But even with the sale, a used second-to-latest-generation (aka "pre-ASPH") 90/2 or latest-generation 90/2.8 is still more affordable.

If you were to consider just image quality and look (without regard for price, size/weight, or max aperture differences), how do these three compare?

And more importantly, which would you select considering all the factors?



Nov 22, 2014 at 09:47 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Leica 90's


I have never tried any so my info is purely from hearsay. The Summarit is probably the best performer overall, excellent sharpness, nice bokeh, suffers reportedly from some CA. The 90 cron pre-AA is quite soft wide open but sharpens well stopped down. The 90/2.8 is excellent by all accounts. But the half stop difference of the Summarit can be very advantageous at this FL.


Nov 22, 2014 at 09:58 PM
uhoh7
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Leica 90's


Hi Lee I just put up a set with the Summarit in the Leica image thread By chance

Here a few more:

L1024965 by unoh7, on Flickr


L1024976 by unoh7, on Flickr


L1024974 by unoh7, on Flickr

Last two WO on M9 no PP here at all.

The 90 Rit is utterly unique in rendering to my eye. Ultra modern, fantastic with color and crazy sharp. The 90 crons are all too heavy for me. I tried the Hex 90 and the Elmarit-M 90 also but settled on the Rit. The Hex is best handling, with the Rit not far off. The Elmarit, which many will tell you is the sharpest, but I don't think it can beat the rit, feels much heavier on the M9, because besides the weight, it's longer and front heavy.

I paid 1400 from Keh for this one, supposedly LN, but more a exe-, however it has perfect calibration, which is so nice when you shoot a 90mm at f/2.5. At that aperture it will resolve details miles away. A similar condition 90/2.8 Elmarit-M is actually more expensive.

Ron also has some very nice shots with it on the 240 one page back in the L thread

Obviously if you want ultralight, then the macro-elmar, or the CV APO 90/3.5 are both excellent. The CV is a steal, and regarded by many as the sharpest M/LTM voigtlander. I found a perfect one at adorama for 350.

Back in my Nex days I loved my TE 90, but it is far outclassed by all these lenses.

Also the Rit is really good on the Sony A7 series. I often use it on my own A7 in combo with a 35 or 28 on the M9 for a two-body shoot.



Nov 22, 2014 at 10:34 PM
Mescalamba
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Leica 90's


That CA is probably rumor.. these pics dont show it. Seems like really good lens..


Nov 23, 2014 at 06:16 AM
Chris_88
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Leica 90's


I only have the newest version of the Elmarit-M 90 2.8. It was much cheaper than either the Summarit 75 or 90. I find it extremely sharp across the frame stopped down and very good at the in-focus area wide open. The bokeh is very nice, too. It's become one of my favorite lenses.

From what I've heard, the Summicron 90 pre-ASPH is quite soft wide open, hence people like it for portraiture. The Summarit 75/90 are supposedly excellent. In fact, some tests have shown that the Summarit 75 was (almost) as good as the Cron 75. I would think that the same is true for the Summarit 90 and Cron 90 ASPH.



Nov 23, 2014 at 06:52 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Leica 90's


I had the R 90 cron (which is basically the same optical formula as the M 90 cron Pre-AA) and complaints of it softness wide open are subjective, IMO. It does have some SA at f/2 that clears up nicely by f/2.8 and is totally gone by f/4. I like the wide open look a lot and that you can either use it at f/2 or avoid it by stopping down and get the super sharp look. I think the SA also enhances the excellent bokeh of this lens. The 90 cron Pre-AA has a lot in common with the 75 lux. If you like the look of one, then you will likely like the look of the other, and they have similar strengths and weaknesses.

The summarits are excellent lenses and admirably small, but I like the dual character of the 90 cron Pre-AA and the 75 lux. If you prefer the 90 cron AA, then you might well prefer the 90 summarit as a 90 cron AA light.



Nov 23, 2014 at 07:56 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Leica 90's


My understanding is the Leica 90mm f2.8 Elmarit lens performs better than the 90mm f2 Pre Aspheric Summicron and is better constructed than the Summarit. Also, the only 90mm Leica lens to perform better than the 90mm Elmarit is the Aspheric Summicron and both are supposed to have a more 3D appearance than the Summarit. Also, the only Leica lens around this focal length to perform better than the 90mm Elmarit M or R and quite possibly the Aspheric Summicron M or R is the R 100mm f2.8 Apo-Macro-Elmarit. But the Apo-Macro-Elmarit is heavier than the 90s is slower to operate due to the extremely long throw for infinity to 1/2 life size, length, and does not balance as well on the cameras.

Rich



Nov 23, 2014 at 10:40 AM
tophoto.
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Leica 90's


I have a final pre asph e55 cron and have been nothing but impressed with it. You can find them for $1k USD if you look around and are patient enough. I don't have any complaints about it being soft wide open, I was anticipating it would and it really holds up quite surprisingly, not the same level as the new apo but for the price I'm not complaining one bit! This was wide open on an m9(some pp):

Tom Barrows by Thomas O'Connell, on Flickr



Nov 23, 2014 at 01:42 PM
uhoh7
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Leica 90's


sweet shot Tom!

Chris_88 wrote:
In fact, some tests have shown that the Summarit 75 was (almost) as good as the Cron 75.


With the little CV 75/2.5 as good as either, according to Sean Reid, and far more portable, not to mention at around 300 used; affordable

@Rich Yes I read all that stuff about the 90 Elmarit-M, which is worshipped, but I've held both in my hand, and if anything I'd say the build on the Summarit is better. It's different, which may be why some think it's inferior, but very tight and far superior in handling. Feels like a 50 lux on there. Focus ring on the Summarit I prefer.

The elmarit-M is very like the 135/3.4 APO in build, with the same built on hood. The summarit, on the other hand has a special hood, expensive(84usd) and separate, which screws to external threads. The lens is fantastic against the sun so you don't "need" a hood most times, but I like them, so found a simple 10USD hood which screws to internal threads and I cap that. With hood attached the lens is still small enough for easy carry and off course the hood does not effect the great handling.

Here with ZM 35/2 for scale:

by unoh7, on Flickr

and with the ZM 18:

Untitled by unoh7, on Flickr

The Summarit 90 is nearly identical in weight to the 18 above, and only 20 grams heavier than the 50 Lux APSH

and here's the cheap little hood I use:

Untitled by unoh7, on Flickr
That little ring on the very top edge of the lens actually comes off to expose the external threads for the Leica Hood.

" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Here's the Leica hood mounting movie,

I think I've seen them as low as 1150 used, but 1400 is sort of the going rate, without hood.
hey how bout that iPhone 6+ w/IBIS
and here is the lens on the A7:

DSC07427 by unoh7, on Flickr


DSC07747 by unoh7, on Flickr



Nov 23, 2014 at 01:46 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Leica 90's


naturephoto1 wrote:
My understanding is the Leica 90mm f2.8 Elmarit lens performs better than the 90mm f2 Pre Aspheric Summicron and is better constructed than the Summarit. Also, the only 90mm Leica lens to perform better than the 90mm Elmarit is the Aspheric Summicron and both are supposed to have a more 3D appearance than the Summarit. Also, the only Leica lens around this focal length to perform better than the 90mm Elmarit M or R and quite possibly the Aspheric Summicron M or R is the R 100mm f2.8 Apo-Macro-Elmarit. But the Apo-Macro-Elmarit is heavier than the 90s is slower to
...Show more

It depends what you mean as better. I have had both the R 90 cron and the R 90 Elmarit version II, which are optically almost identical to the M 90 cron Pre-AA and the 90 Elmarit-M. No question the R 90 Elmarit vII was an excellent lens. It is sharp from wide open over pretty much the whole frame. Has nice colour. The bokeh is nothing to complain about. Despite all that to like about the Elmarit, I preferred the R 90 cron. Sure it wasn't sharp across the frame wide open, but I loved the f/2 bokeh and the central 2/3 had enough sharpness for my purposes and stopped down it was razor sharp across the frame--I never felt stopped down the Elmarit was sharper--but I didn't have both lenses at the same time. I do know I have more shots that are among my favourites from the cron and I have more fond memories of using it. For me I like the cron better and some of it was certainly due to the extra stop, but some was also due to way it rendered at that extra stop. It could produce beautiful results even if they weren't technically perfect.



Nov 23, 2014 at 10:51 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Leica 90's


I've heard it mentioned in various places that the pre-ASPH 90 Cron has less resolution than others, but it's usually specified "wide open." Well, that's not much of a surprise since it opens a stop wider. Does it fall behind in resolution at "matched" apertures too?


Nov 23, 2014 at 11:41 PM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Leica 90's


Steve Spencer wrote:
It depends what you mean as better. I have had both the R 90 cron and the R 90 Elmarit version II, which are optically almost identical to the M 90 cron Pre-AA and the 90 Elmarit-M. No question the R 90 Elmarit vII was an excellent lens. It is sharp from wide open over pretty much the whole frame. Has nice colour. The bokeh is nothing to complain about. Despite all that to like about the Elmarit, I preferred the R 90 cron. Sure it wasn't sharp across the frame wide open, but I loved the f/2 bokeh
...Show more

Steve,

I have never had the version 2 R 90mm Elmarit or the M 90mm Elmarit. I do have an older R 90mm f2 Summicron that I have had for 30 years, though I liked the lens and it produced outstanding image over the years. So, I have never been able to compare them. When the lens was checked by Leica Camera USA in December of 2012 it was found that the lens had pitting along with other issues (there had been a scratch through the front coatings when purchased used) and I never noticed any problems. The lens was also starting to get a little clouding. When discussed with Justin Stailey when he was still with Leica Camera USA at the time, we decided to not do a CLA on this particular lens due to the pitting and nothing could be done about this issue. We did go ahead and have Leica Camera USA do the CLA on both my R 50mm Summicron and my R 35mm Summicron however because they only had a slight loss of some othe coatings (hey they were 30 years old ). Also, we did not do the CLA ($350 charge by Leica) because I had the R 100mm Apo-Macro-Elmarit. As Justin and I discussed it made more sense for me to just use my R 100mm Apo-Macro-Elmarit or also use the money saved from the CLA of my 90mm Summicron and purchase either another R 90mm Summicron or an R 90mm Elmarit V2. Now having the Sony A7r things are quite different and I could add the M 90mm lenses to the possible mix of lenses that I have.

Rich

Edited on Nov 24, 2014 at 12:19 PM · View previous versions



Nov 24, 2014 at 07:35 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Leica 90's


Lee Saxon wrote:
I've heard it mentioned in various places that the pre-ASPH 90 Cron has less resolution than others, but it's usually specified "wide open." Well, that's not much of a surprise since it opens a stop wider. Does it fall behind in resolution at "matched" apertures too?


As I said, I never had the R cron Pre-AA and the R elmarit II at the same time, but my recollection is that they had similar sharpness at similar apertures. At f/2.8 the elmarit might have had better corner sharpness, but from f/4 and narrower they were both blisteringly sharp. I think the cron Pre-AA (both R and M) are often described as "soft" wide open, because they are quite noticeably less sharp than the cron AA wide open, but that lens is quite remarkable for being as sharp as it is wide open. In my view, a lot of the decision on whether to get the cron Pre-AA is whether you like the rendering at f/2, if you do then I think it is worth getting the lens over the Elmarit-M or R Elmarit II, but if you don't really care for the wide open rendering then you might as well get the smaller and excellent Elmarit. Personally, I really like the f/2 rendering of the Pre-AA cron (Tom's shot above is a good example of what it can do), so I will take the slight size penalty to get the ability to shoot at f/2. Price really isn't an issue as the Pre-AA cron and the Elmarit (last version) are pretty similar in price. So, the tradeoff is size (and maybe a little better performance across the frame at f/2.8) vs. the ability to shoot at f/2.



Nov 24, 2014 at 10:09 AM
rirakuma
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Leica 90's


I really like the 90 cron. Here's some samples taken with them, two at f4 and one wide open. Its not tack sharp wide open but I doubt you'd complain unless you're really nit picking. If you don't need the speed then a 90 elmarit would make a lot more sense. The M version seems to have a bit more character than the R. The summarit is great as well, its much more compact than the cron.








Nov 24, 2014 at 10:41 AM
JaKo
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Leica 90's


Leica M/X/T and Leica-R threads have many examples by Summicron-M/R 90 pre-ASPH, but I may suggest to follow notes by denoir in Leica M/X/T who perfectly describes difference between pre-ASPH and ASPH versions of Summicron-M 90.

As for the ‘lack’ of sharpness at f/2, it’s often described as soft but with details. After all it’s one of Walter Mandler’s designs with typical Leica glow.

Summicron-M 90 pre-ASPH wide open



Nov 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Leica 90's




Mescalamba wrote:
That CA is probably rumor.. these pics dont show it. Seems like really good lens..


90 Summarit does have some CA. Shows as a bit of a red edge, but isn't always noticeable. Cleans up easily in post. My limited experience with the 75 Summarit leads me to believe it's a touch sharper. I only recently got a 90AA and haven't really compared it much against the Summarit, but initial impression is the AA is slightly more transparent.

I remember Luka's work with the pre-AA... It seemed to have a lot more CA in technical scenes, and I guess the AA is sharper across the frame. The Summarit is no slouch and I've happily used mine for a few years. But considering the price of the new version, I'd probably opt to spend about the same amount on a used AA. As Charlie indicated, used Summarits can be found under $1200.

Rendering of the pre-AA does look really nice...



Nov 24, 2014 at 04:37 PM
uhoh7
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Leica 90's


The Crons are all very nice lenses, with various personalities, but what they have in common is very high weight and footprint, hence a tendency to gather dust in many collections.

The 90 Summarit is hard to notice in your pocket and handles like a 50 Lux on the camera.

If one really will use a big heavy lens, the older crons are a steal



Nov 24, 2014 at 07:08 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Leica 90's


uhoh7 wrote:
The Crons are all very nice lenses, with various personalities, but what they have in common is very high weight and footprint, hence a tendency to gather dust in many collections.

The 90 Summarit is hard to notice in your pocket and handles like a 50 Lux on the camera.

If one really will use a big heavy lens, the older crons are a steal


I guess we all have different ideas of what a big and a small lens entails. The 90 Summarit is definitely small, IMO, but I don't consider the 90 cron Pre-AA big. I would call it medium size. The diameter is still only 63mm, which is less than the Sony/Zeiss 55 f/1.8 and still not very fat at all. It is also about 10mm longer than the 90 Summarit (but almost the same length as the 90 Elmarit-M), but the 90 Summarit is 15mm longer than the 50 lux ASPH, so in terms of length the 90 Summarit and 90 cron Pre-AA are closer in length than the 90 Summarit and 50 lux.

On a rangefinder I can see why the 90 cron Pre-AA would seem big. It would block the finder to a fair degree, but on something like the Sony mirrorless cameras that isn't an issue and the cron Pre-AA is still smaller than almost all the SLR lens alternatives such as the Olympus 90 f/2 macro, the Minolta Rokkor 85 f/1.7, the Pentax plain-K 85 f/1.8 (but not the M series 85 f/2), the Contax/Zeiss 85 f/1.4 (but not the 85 f/2.8), the Canon FD 85 f/1.8, the Nikon 85 f/2, and even the Zeiss ZM 85 f/2 Sonnar, the m4/3rds Panny Leica 42.5 f/1.2, and the APS-C Fuji 56 f/1.2. So there are a few lenses that are smaller (e.g., the Contax Zeiss 85 f/2.8, the Contax G 90 f/2.8, and the Pentax M series 85 f/2) but not many and the one's that are tend to be either a stop slower or to be a little shorter (i.e., an 85mm) or both.



Nov 25, 2014 at 12:32 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Leica 90's


Well, I walk around with the 2500g 180/2 APO-Summicron fairly regularly, so I think it's safe to say the size would not be a factor for me in deciding between M-mount 90's, haha


Nov 25, 2014 at 01:45 PM
pandorf
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Leica 90's


Lee Saxon wrote:
The "old" Summarit 2.5's are on sale now that the "new" Summarit 2.4's are available. I'm considering a 90.

But even with the sale, a used second-to-latest-generation (aka "pre-ASPH") 90/2 or latest-generation 90/2.8 is still more affordable.

If you were to consider just image quality and look (without regard for price, size/weight, or max aperture differences), how do these three compare?

And more importantly, which would you select considering all the factors?


What genre of photograph do you plan to shoot with the 90? All of these lenses draw differently wide open and even have different color characteristics when stopped down. If you have a "look" you're after, that would be the question you need to ask to find out which of these lenses will provide the artistic rendering you want.

I would try and do some searches on Flickr by lens type to see if you can at least get some ideas on how each of these render. Just because you can find a good deal on one of these in the focal length you're interested might not be what you really want.



Nov 26, 2014 at 04:54 PM
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