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Archive 2014 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?

  
 
henry albert
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


"Higher pixel density requires a faster shutter speed to achieve the same pixel-level sharpness..."

I've seen this statement often, but I've never seen it explained. Could someone explain the physics to me? Not saying I disagree or agree, just want to know the "why" of it.



Nov 22, 2014 at 04:37 PM
sjms
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


it is all dependent on the users ability to stay still while shooting. the reasoning is that there is more potential for smearing your image with higher resolution imager.


Nov 22, 2014 at 04:44 PM
Kenneth Farver
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


for full frame cameras, while hand held, a minimum shutter speed equal to the lens length was always suggested.
i.e. 200mm lens, 1/200 second shutter speed, 50mm lens, 1/50 sec. or next one up.

Since the crop sensors are 1.5 or 1.6, you would double the shutter speed to match the lens length.

i.e. 200mm lens use 1/400 shutter, 50mm lens use 1/100

hope this helps!



Nov 22, 2014 at 04:48 PM
henry albert
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


But why is there more potential for blur as pixel density increases, which necessitates faster shutter speeds to compensate? That's my question.


Nov 22, 2014 at 05:03 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


Lets say you have two sensors of the same physical size but sensor 'A' has 100 pixels per horizontal millimeter of sensor area and sensor 'B' (higher-density) has 200 pixels for that same area. Let's then say you have a photographic subject that is moving across your FOV at a rate that equates to 1mm of project sensor area per unit of time. For this example let's say 1/500 is the slowest shutter speed possible to avoid the appearance of motion blur at 1:1 magnification ("pixel level") for that subject on sensor 'A'. If you use that same shutter speed on sensor 'B', the subject will have moved the same distance across the sensor (1mm) as sensor 'A' yet will have been sampled by twice the number of pixels, thus when viewed at 1:1 magnification you will now see evidence of motion blur at the pixel level, net of the perceptual effects from viewing an image at higher magnification, ie like how edge transitions will always look less distinct. If you downsample sensor's 'B' image to 100 pixels/mm (1:2 magnification), the amount of visible blur will be same as sensor 'A', thus a higher density sensor will never exhibit more blur than a lower density sensor when viewed at the same output/viewing size. However, if your goal of using a higher density sensor was to achieve *more* resolution, either to print larger or for more cropability ("reach"), then you must use a higher shutter speed to achieve blur-free images at 1:1 magnification ("pixel-level") since you're sampling the image over more pixels in the same area.


Nov 22, 2014 at 05:10 PM
Nikon_14
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


Snapsy does a great job of explaining things. But maybe some of the terms are unfamiliar to the OP, so:

Camera shake and other mistakes that might not be visible at 12mp become very obvious at 24mp and especially 36mp.



Nov 22, 2014 at 09:02 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


Nikon_14 wrote:
Snapsy does a great job of explaining things. But maybe some of the terms are unfamiliar to the OP, so:

Camera shake and other mistakes that might not be visible at 12mp become very obvious at 24mp and especially 36mp.


I don't think there are any 36 MP DX bodies. 24 MP DX like the D7100 is worse for vibration/movement than a D8xx series in the realm of F-mount.

EBH



Nov 22, 2014 at 10:29 PM
ohsnaphappy
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


When shooting handheld I use the fastest shutter speed the situation allows. With today's raw files you can even underexpose for the sake of a faster shutter and increase the exposure later in post. It just depends what you're shooting and what you're trying to achieve. But if you've ever wondered how some folks get such sharp shots wide open the answer is eliminating camera Shake.


Nov 22, 2014 at 10:37 PM
thegame81
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


More pixels = more details

Shake induced blur gets exagerated the more details a sensor captures.




Nov 22, 2014 at 10:40 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


ohsnaphappy wrote:
When shooting handheld I use the fastest shutter speed the situation allows.


Basically this.

A 1/something relative to focal length rule helps, but you'll have to develop it based on your own technique, your subjects, and stabilization aids like tripods and image stabilization.



Nov 23, 2014 at 02:02 AM
Lance B
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


If you are planning to view the images from a D8xx camera larger than you would from a lesser Mp FX camera, or crop more, then you may need to use a faster shutter speed so as to take full advantage of the higher Mp sensored camera. However, if you are planning to view them at the same size, then you won't see any difference with regards to camera shake. Camera shake doesn't magically appear just because you are using a higher Mp camera but are viewing at the same size as a lesser Mp camera. It can't, it's impossible. Camera shake on a higher Mp body is only evident when you view at a higher viewing size, say 100% view, or are cropping more. Otherwise it will look exactly the same as a lesser Mp image when viewed at the same size.



Nov 23, 2014 at 05:53 AM
Mark_L
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


More pixels = bigger 100% view. It is similar to how a 8x10" print could look sharp but at 12x16" it doesn't because 'errors' get shown larger.


Nov 23, 2014 at 07:31 AM
williamkazak
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


Nikon_14 wrote:
Snapsy does a great job of explaining things. But maybe some of the terms are unfamiliar to the OP, so:

Camera shake and other mistakes that might not be visible at 12mp become very obvious at 24mp and especially 36mp.


Well, is the camera shake and blur still there at 12mp or are you just not seeing it appear?



Nov 23, 2014 at 10:03 AM
trenchmonkey
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


Fatter pixels are more forgiving.


Nov 23, 2014 at 10:30 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


EB-1 wrote:
I don't think there are any 36 MP DX bodies. 24 MP DX like the D7100 is worse for vibration/movement than a D8xx series in the realm of F-mount.

EBH


36MP FX is more sensitive to movement than a 24MP DX for the same AOV. To paraphrase a D800 vs D7000 thought experiment that Thom Hogan once did (but changed here for a D7100): A 16mm lens on D7100 puts 6000 pixels across 74° of view, while a 24mm lens on a D800 puts 7360 pixels for that same 74°. That means 1° of motion is 81 pixels on the D7100 but is 99 pixels on the D800.



Nov 23, 2014 at 10:43 AM
williamkazak
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


So, a 16mp D7000 is not necessarily a "bad thing" for action.


Nov 23, 2014 at 10:52 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


williamkazak wrote:
So, a 16mp D7000 is not necessarily a "bad thing" for action.


Keep in mind the equation changes for reach-limited situations, where the same lens might be used on DX to get more "reach" vs FX mounted with the same lens. This mean the AOV will be different between the two, which was not the case here. For example, using a 300mm lens, the AOV is approx 5° on a D7100 and approx 7° on a D800. That translates to 1200 pixels per 1° of motion on the D7100 and 1051 pixels per 1° of motion on the D800.



Nov 23, 2014 at 11:11 AM
johnctharp
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


snapsy wrote:
Keep in mind the equation changes for reach-limited situations, where the same lens might be used on DX to get more "reach" vs FX mounted with the same lens. This mean the AOV will be different between the two, which was not the case here. For example, using a 300mm lens, the AOV is approx 5° on a D7100 and approx 7° on a D800. That translates to 1200 pixels per 1° of motion on the D7100 and 1051 pixels per 1° of motion on the D800.


Wonder if we could come up with a 'pixels per degree' method of determining a baseline minimum shutter speed rule for static subjects?

I'm looking for a 'one rule to rule them all' sort of thing that can be simplified for common usage, taking into account sensor size, resolution, and focal length.



Nov 23, 2014 at 11:14 AM
henry albert
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


snapsy wrote:
. . . . If you use that same shutter speed on sensor 'B', the subject will have moved the same distance across the sensor (1mm) as sensor 'A' yet will have been sampled by twice the number of pixels, thus when viewed at 1:1 magnification you will now see evidence of motion blur at the pixel level. . .


What I'm looking for is why we will see the blur because of the increase in sampling.



Nov 23, 2014 at 09:07 PM
Lance B
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · High pixel density needs faster shutter speeds?


henry albert wrote:
What I'm looking for is why we will see the blur because of the increase in sampling.


Like I said above, viewed at the same size, you won't see blur more evident in the higher Mp camera than a lower Mp camera when viewed at the same image size, all else being equal, ie same lens, same light, same aperture, same shutter speed, both FX. It is only when you take advantage of the higher Mp camera and view it at 100% that you may see evidence of camera shake, as then you would be viewing a larger image from the D8xx camera. If you compared a D8xx to a D700 and at 100% image size, then you would have a D8xx image displayed at 7360 pixels wide and a D700 image displayed at 4256 pixels wide, the D8xx image being 1.72x larger meaning that you are able to see camera shake more easily than if you displayed them both at 4256 pixels for both.



Nov 24, 2014 at 12:11 AM
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