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Archive 2014 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs

  
 
Dbui_cal
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


Last week, I posted a FS ad for a Canon 5d Mark II in the buy and sale forum ( https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1324366/0?keyword=canon,5d,mark#12635150 ). A member with screen name finover9 (Armornthep Boonlert) contacted me and wanted to purchase the camera. We exchanged PMs where I tried my best to answer all his questions. In the end, I extended an offer to him that I do to many of my buyers which is:

I am willing to accept return of the item I sold given that, the buyer has to contact me within three business day to ask for refund. And if the item is a camera, then there should be no more than 50 shutter clicks used if the buyer wants a refund.

We agreed on the term and I shipped out the camera out on Monday. USPS tracking showed the buyer received the camera on Wednesday.

On Saturday morning, Armornthep PMed me and told me that he wanted to return the camera. He told me he had only taken 5 shots. I told him to send me the camera and once I received the camera, I will refund the money.

Yesterday, I received the camera back from Armornthep. I did a quick check to compare the shutter count and the serial number of the camera to see if they match before I refund the money. To my dismay, the camera registered over 500 extra shots then when I shipped it out. I contacted Armornthep and asked him to explain the discrepancy
between the shutter readings. He replied and said he had only taken 5 shots. There must have been something wrong with the shutter software (Apple Apps ShutterCount) that I used to check the shutter reading. I told him I checked several times and each time the shutter showed 3842 instead of 3335 when I sent out the camera.

I told Armornthep that I want members of this forums to comment on this matter and their experience with the ShutterCount app. Armornthep was not open to this idea and has threaten to open a case with paypal against me. Please comment with any advice that I can resolve the matter with the buyer.

I am attaching the before and after screen shot of the shutter count reading along with the history. I will also attach the screen shot of our conversation via PM.

Thank you in advance for any help regarding this matter.

Don



Oct 30, 2014 at 10:41 PM
anthonysemone
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


Don,

Well, he agreed to abide by your shutter count restriction. He did not, irrespective of his claim that the software was flawed. Horse hockey Take the damn thing back, and, assuming when you unpack it, it is in the same condition as when you sent it, and whatever other requirements you established with him before you "sold" it to him, refund his damn money. I assume you have pictures of it before you sent it; take more when it arrives. He sounds to me like he may be one of those folks who is looking for a "let's see how much of a reduction in price Don is willing to give me to make this go away." You might suggest he go to Adorama, BH, or KEH



Oct 31, 2014 at 07:30 AM
finover9
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


Hello everyone,
Thank you Don, for giving me a chance to explain myself. After 2 phone calls with Don, I admit that I don’t have hard evidence like Don has to prove anything. I realize the end result and will not stress out both parties. By the time I am done posting this comment. I will transfer shipping money to Don to ship the camera back to me and I have 1 favor to ask Don which I will state below. Don please acknowledge and confirm the payment here. FMers, please read it through before reply we could use your knowledge and experience to solve this.

I am amateur and not professional. Eventho, I think I know the basic of how to take photo and test camera gear to certain degree, Thank you Fredmiranda and internet.

First I would like to go over my gear. I have D90(5 years 6k shots) with Tokina11-16 mm, Nikor 18-200 mm, Nikor 85 mm f1.8, 50 mm f1.8(not shown in the picture. Lend to a friend) and SB-600 since 2009. Please see pic below

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/1888913_487852868022933_1845133248241676982_o.jpg

And here is Canon gears that I bought to test the camera. Below are the receipts from B&H

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/l/t1.0-9/1157387_487852864689600_4333537927711943824_n.jpg?oh=fd2dfbe22d8cb1bc06144bb69c5d4941&oe=54F3F6CB

And here is some of the photo I took with D90 to show you that I know the basic of how to take photo and post process (to certain degree. I am still amateur and much to learn.) I know gear is not as important as a photographer but to make a master piece, I think it is a combination of both (off topic.) I really like the photo from Canon (the color) from what I have seen on the web and decided to go with Canon for my FF.

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/l/t1.0-9/1546381_339759849498903_332831662_n.jpg?oh=39add6edf0e54d62302c798f50c4ac97&oe=54AA7228

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1795581_368123606662527_1831796039_n.jpg?oh=4bc28786588840468a763fc3df5acb03&oe=54AF2F24

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10153080_487853938022826_6793325381534859404_n.jpg?oh=8d25f12735f433af0a5f6a3e28c35b4d&oe=54E6A8CA

I can take good photo from my current gear, the Nikon. I dont think an upgrade to FF and using Canon will dramatically make my photo look fantastic and beautiful but I believe it will improve my photo in some way and would like to try that myself (try to get into ski and snowboard photography). My point is. if I had an event or wedding to shoot (I am not an event or wedding photographer, I do landscape you can check my facebook page https://www.facebook.com/InitialAB and getting into ski and snowboard photography) It would make more sense to use my current Nikon gear over freshly bought Canon 5D MKII with 50mm f1.8. Eventho, 5D MK II is a much better camera, I am not use to Canon ergonomics yet (especially the focusing.) IMHO, I think to do those kind of event and wedding photography, knowing how to use your camera is more important than using a better camera in this case D90 (5 years) over 5D MKII(3 days with single lens). Again this is just my word I don’t have any prove and I already accepted the fact.

From my knowledge I know enough to inspect camera before I actually use it. If I already know that the sensor is not spotless and there are things that I don’t like. I know I want to return it, why would I risk adding 500 shots knowing that Don will check the shutter count because it is in our agreement and go through all this. It is definitely not Don’s fault. He is a great guy. He even created this thread to give me a chance to tell my side of story. He doesn’t have to do all this since I sent him money using Paypal gift. But he still did and I really appreciated. So, the only question I have is how 500 shots just show up? Could there be error somewhere? Anyone has this kind of experience before? Please share. Like I said I don’t want to create any problem to Don and myself so I will send him shipping money to ship the camera back to me but first I would like to hear FMers’ opinion.

This is a favor that I mentioned above.
- I would like Don to take photo using the 5D MK II without lens and CF card today (Friday the 31st) – 3 clicks (3 photos ) then turn it off.
- On Saturday the 1st – 2 clicks with lens and CF card then may be play around with liveview for 30 second and play around with focus but don’t take any picture then turn it off.
- May be Sunday night you can run the camera through the app and report the shutter here and you can ship the camera back to me on Monday. So the final shutter count should be 3847

This was exactly what I did to the camera. Regarding whatever the result , I will respect it.
Thank you for your time and your help. Any suggestion is welcome.











Oct 31, 2014 at 09:34 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


finover9 wrote:
Hello everyone,
Thank you Don, for giving me a chance to explain myself. After 2 phone calls with Don, I admit that I don’t have hard evidence like Don has to prove anything. I realize the end result and will not stress out both parties. By the time I am done posting this comment. I will transfer shipping money to Don to ship the camera back to me and I have 1 favor to ask Don which I will state below. Don please acknowledge and confirm the payment here. FMers, please read it through before reply we could use your knowledge
...Show more

It's good to see you guys are having a friendly dialog about the issue. Regarding the technical specifics of the shutter count on Canon bodies - Canon cameras maintain an internal shutter counter that is accessible on most models by issuing USB commands to the camera using Canon's Software Development Kit (SDK). Third-party utilities like "ShutterCount" integrate this SDK into their product and use it to report the shutter count and also additional information like the camera's serial number. Generally speaking the shutter count reported by these utilities is accurate and is not sensitive to switching CF/SD cards (and their card-specific image numbers), at least for bodies for which the SDK support is stable, which I believe includes the 5DM2. Other camera systems like Nikon will increment the shutter count for situations even when a photo isn't taken, such as when Live View is entered/exited (since that involves a shutter cycle) - however Canon doesn't count such actions against the shutter count so that's probably not what happened here.

Your requested experiment is a good one. Based on my own experience with those shutter count utilities on Canon bodies I believe the result of the experiment will show that it correctly counts the 5 additional shutter clicks.

In case we're missing possible situations where the 5DM2 might increment the shutter count without an exosure, can you think of anything else you did with the camera outside of the steps you described in your post for the experiment?



Oct 31, 2014 at 09:54 AM
teddoman
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


Does Canon write shutter count to photo EXIF? Sony does so you can check Sony shutter count just from one photo. If so, it might give you more info on whether there's an error.


Oct 31, 2014 at 12:16 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


teddoman wrote:
Does Canon write shutter count to photo EXIF? Sony does so you can check Sony shutter count just from one photo. If so, it might give you more info on whether there's an error.


Unfortunately Canon does not store the shutter count in the EXIF data.



Oct 31, 2014 at 12:34 PM
ronfronberg
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


I would try another program to see/verify if the shutter counts are the same for the images when the camera was sent and when the camera was returned.


Oct 31, 2014 at 03:40 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


anthonysemone wrote:
Don,

Well, he agreed to abide by your shutter count restriction. He did not, irrespective of his claim that the software was flawed. Horse hockey Take the damn thing back, and, assuming when you unpack it, it is in the same condition as when you sent it, and whatever other requirements you established with him before you "sold" it to him, refund his damn money. I assume you have pictures of it before you sent it; take more when it arrives. He sounds to me like he may be one of those folks who is looking for a "let's see
...Show more

Or a another place much lower into the Earth's crust!!!
What were the file numbers before and after the return?
Dan



Oct 31, 2014 at 07:30 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


500 shots is nothing. Don't sweat the small stuff.


Oct 31, 2014 at 08:15 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


snapsy wrote:
Unfortunately Canon does not store the shutter count in the EXIF data.


Yeah, I wish they would change that. The shutter count is indeed stored but not available to owner. $6-8K for a Pro body That should at least entitle us to know the shutter count.




Nov 01, 2014 at 08:12 AM
Dbui_cal
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


Thank you all for your invaluable inputs. I am going to follow all the suggestions above and refund the money back to him. I'll also take this as a great lesson and will not allow return in the future.


Nov 01, 2014 at 11:21 PM
anthonysemone
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Members and moderators: I need your inputs


Don, I for one appreciate your posting your experience with finover9. I have just added him to my DNDBW list (i.e., Do Not Do Business With)


Nov 02, 2014 at 07:17 AM





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