Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | People Photography | Join Upload & Sell

  

Archive 2014 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym

  
 
scottad
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


Hi, I wasn't quite sure where to post this question, but I'm hoping this forum is OK...

Short story: I'm taking a 500-person photo next week inside a gym, and I'm looking for advice/suggestions.

More details…

I'm taking a VERY large group picture (nearly 500 people) inside an elementary/middle school basketball gym next week. It's a picture of an entire K-8 school. I will have access to a large ladder or a cherry-picker, and I plan to use one of them. With such a large group of kids, there will be minimal time to pose - it's basically going to be "OK, everyone, gather at this end of the gym and look up at the photographer." As you can imagine, I also won't have much time, given the attention span of a group of hundreds of young kids. I'm familiar with the gym (and I can access the location in advance if needed), and I have photographed events there before, but they were all sports events, candids, etc -- nothing like a ~500 person picture!

Some additional background info: I agreed to take this photo as a volunteer (it's a religious school associated with my church). I've taken lots of photos for them in the past (generally candids at events, in classrooms, etc), and they were very pleased with those photos. They don't have sufficient funds to hire a photographer more experienced than me (ie, someone who has experience with 500-person group photos). So, they're likely to be happy with anything better than a basic iPhone snapshot, but I'd like to do the best job I can. I should note that, in the hour leading up to the 500-person photo, I'll be roaming around taking various candid photos, so I'll have minimal time for preparation in the hour leading up to the group photo. I should be able to get as many assistants/helpers as I need (but they'll likely have minimal photography knowledge).

Most of my photography experience is with "people photography" -- generally close-ups and candids of individuals or very small groups (2-10 people) -- usually kids. I'm very comfortable with my gear in natural/ambient light situations, but I rarely use off-camera lighting (partly due to personal preference and needs for "natural" lighting, and partly due to my limited experience with off-camera lighting).

I own plenty of cameras/lenses (5DIII, 70D, A7, several "backup cameras," several L zooms, and large selection of fast primes ranging from 20mm to 135mm). I'm very comfortable using any of my cameras or lenses for this job, but I don't have that same level of comfort with off-camera flash. I own a few 550EX speedlights, but I rarely use them. I've experimented with various off-camera flash (Strobist type stuff), but it's been at least 5 years...

The photo will likely be used on the web, promo/marketing materials, and likely a large (24"x36" ballpark) print to be displayed.

Sorry for all the rambling, but I wanted to give you some background on the photo shoot and my particular strengths and weaknesses. My questions are:

1. Should I even consider using off-camera lighting? I'm open to renting lighting gear if needed (or maaaaybe even purchasing something, and using this as an "excuse" to get back into off-camera lighting work). However, I won't have much time to familiarize myself with the gear prior to the shoot. So, if you recommend off-camera lighting, I'm thinking I'd need something relatively simple and reliable. The ceiling is high (maybe 30-feet?), and most walls are white. I can ask them to adjust the overhead lights however I need, but I don’t know how much control they have.

2. I don’t have a good “feel” for how much space 500 people will take up in a small gym (bleachers are only on one side; I’m pretty sure I’ll be set up at one end behind a raised basketball goal). As I said, there won’t be much time to try to pose nearly 500 young kids, but I can probably provide some input on where to put everyone. Any suggestions or thoughts on composition?

3. Ladder vs cherry picker: The ladder isn’t going to get me very high (my camera would be maybe 10-12 feet off the ground). Should I request the cherry picker to get up higher? Would you shoot this any differently if using a ladder versus a cherry picker?

I really appreciate any advice or suggestions - thanks in advance!



Oct 27, 2014 at 11:22 AM
Eyeball
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


I've never shot a group that large but I would think the biggest concern for a shot like that would be the lighting. Gyms typically have poor lighting and depending on the type, may even cause uneven color tint due to cycling. No chance of doing the shot outside?

If you try to add artificial lighting, I think you will need quite a bit - probably at least a couple of Einsteins or something similar, possibly modified with something like a large Paul Buff PLM if you want to soften hard shadows.

You're going to want to think about the aspect ratio and size of the final print and take that into consideration for posing the group. Normally, viewers of these types of shots are interested in faces so you will probably want to figure out how to make the faces as big as possible in the frame without dedicating much space to surroundings or the bodies of the front row.



Oct 27, 2014 at 12:33 PM
ESC in KC
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


A slow shutter such as 1/60 or less may allow a full cycle on the lights, but that's too slow for a group because most certainly people will be moving during the shot. To overcome the nausea green and red shades you will get from the gym lights, you will need some strobes for sure. Watch out for shadowing.

If you can go outside with a cherry picker on a nice cloudy day, home run.



Oct 27, 2014 at 03:01 PM
friscoron
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym



I've shot like that inside a gym with a cherry picker. I'd probably stick with the gym's lights due to the shadows you might create with strobes. Shoot much wider than your group of people due to the lens distortion at the ends.



Oct 27, 2014 at 03:26 PM
scottad
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


Thanks everyone for the advice!

It would certainly be easier for me if the shot could be done outdoors, but unfortunately I don't think it's an option.

If you try to add artificial lighting, I think you will need quite a bit - probably at least a couple of Einsteins or something similar, possibly modified with something like a large Paul Buff PLM if you want to soften hard shadows.

I've never used Einsteins before. Do you think 2 Einstein E640's are powerful enough to light a school gym? (assuming I'm shooting from the basketball goal at one end, and the group starts at midcourt and extends to behind the far basket)

A slow shutter such as 1/60 or less may allow a full cycle on the lights, but that's too slow for a group because most certainly people will be moving during the shot. To overcome the nausea green and red shades you will get from the gym lights, you will need some strobes for sure.

I agree that 1/60 is probably too slow due to people moving (and I won't be shooting from a tripod, and I'm also not sure if the cherry picker will be perfectly still). I've shot several events in this gym previously using fast primes with shutter speeds as fast as 1/640. I certainly noticed weird color shifts which varied from shot to shot, but I was able to get the color/WB to look reasonable by adjusting each image individually in Lightroom. Do you have a ballpark guess as to how much strobe power would be needed to overcome the gym lights?

I've shot like that inside a gym with a cherry picker. I'd probably stick with the gym's lights due to the shadows you might create with strobes. Shoot much wider than your group of people due to the lens distortion at the ends.

Right now, I'm leaning towards this option, since I'm comfortable with it (and it's limitations). I don't think I'll get the best possible image, but it also eliminates the possibility of me making a mistake with strobes that I (a) don't have much experience using and (b) won't have much time to set up properly. Ideally, I'll shoot a little wider than the expected final crop, to allow some flexibility for cropping to different aspect ratios.

Thanks again for the helpful responses!



Oct 27, 2014 at 08:32 PM
KaBudokan
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


http://strobist.blogspot.com/2013/07/qa-lighting-1300-person-group-shot.html

500? That's nothing... Check out David Hobby's post here about an almost identical situation (+800). It's not all about the strobist option.



Oct 27, 2014 at 11:05 PM
JakeB17
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


I know there are a few threads discussing the same issue floating around.

But to keep things short and to the point...

Get roughly in the middle of the crowd height wise, whatever it takes.

If you're going to use strobes don't forget to bring huge light modifiers, and extra power. Don't forget to get the strobes higher than your lens assuming do you attempt to light it.

If you're not familiar with strobes in a large setting this may not be the best time to experiment on a large scale. Maybe get a taste by just using two strobes for edge lights for separation, but letting the gym lights key your group.



Oct 27, 2014 at 11:48 PM
Steve Wylie
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


I agree completely with Ron. This is no time to mess with lighting gear you're not familiar with. Here's what I'd do if I were faced with this assignment: have the cherry picker available the day before and have the staff turn on all of the lights in the gym. Find out what a baseline exposure is considering the possibility of cycling lights. You can do 1/60 exposure without too much worry about squirming kids. Be sure your lens selection can handle a wide group and give yourself some room to crop down. Depending on the size of the gym and where the cherry picker can be set up, you might be able to fan the group (as shown in the David Hobby diagram referenced above). To do that, you'll need cooperation from the teachers. You may not have enough time for that.

BTW, my biggest group shot was 700 elementary schoolers posed in the shape of the Stanley Cup last spring. But this was outdoors.



Oct 28, 2014 at 02:08 AM
mitchel674
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


Are you planning on using the bleachers in the gym? That would help you significantly.

My best advice is to tell everyone that if they can't see you clearly, you can't see them. This will get everyone to make those minor head or body adjustments required to get them in the shot. I say this all the time with large groups and it seems to work.



Oct 28, 2014 at 10:05 AM
jefferies1
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


I don't see how you would get that wide of a shot indoors. I have not been in a lot of gyms but the few I have are not all that big. Long and a bit shallow. I would assume you would be up on bleachers on the opposite side to have enough space. Not in the center court. Just my thought but I have never measured. How about a Pano shot if you find the wide lens just is not enough. I would try a couple test shots to see if you could make it an option. Need to be careful with camera position and rotation to make it work. Lighting It would be hard to master that fast. I would at least bounce some light off the ceiling to try and brighten the place and stop some movement. I would think most is focused on the center and not the sides where the bleachers are. This would be one of the few jobs I would do a test run first.


Oct 28, 2014 at 10:48 AM
dmacmillan
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


If they are on bleachers, that's 10 rows of 50, which is doable. If they are in the middle of the gym, you can still do it.

I vote for cherry picker. If possible, mount camera on clamp or use tripod.

Do some pre-planning. I agree to leave some room on either side to help with distortion, although LR does pretty good with distortion correction.

Take lots of images, especially with a crowd this big. I recently took a large group, although I was outside on a crane. I found the best image, everybody was smiling except for one person, who had his eyes closed. I found another image where he was smiling. I corrected both images, then flew in his head with Photoshop. When I challenge people to find him, they can't.



Oct 28, 2014 at 01:41 PM
JThomas
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


I did my son's middle school class photo in the gym 5 years ago.
Can't seem to find it here at work but will post later if I locate it.
The students were in the gym in the bleachers and I was on a very, very tall ladder. (The school had me sign a waiver in case of injury.)
The gym was well lit as far as intensity but the color balance was nearly impossible to correct.
I used two 750 w/s monolights at full power bounced off of the white ceiling about half way between me and the bleachers to help with color balance. More power would have been better, but it worked.
My biggest problem was a few of the kids thought it would be cool to give a one-fingered salute in every frame. I sent a cropped version of them to the vice principal. Luckily, I had a few test frames I could PS in where they weren't "saluting".

The advice about getting a faculty member to address them is a good one...PE teachers are great for this.



Oct 29, 2014 at 12:19 PM
scottad
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


Thanks again for all the extremely helpful responses! I'll try to address some of the questions and comments below...

I stopped by the gym this morning to confirm the layout and where I'll be setup. The gym only has bleachers along one side of the basketball court. The bleachers will NOT be used. I'll be setup behind a basketball goal (which will be moved out of my way). The ceiling is taller than I remembered - probably 40-45 feet tall. However, it's NOT a flat ceiling. It's a "triangular" cross-section ceiling (it that makes sense) - almost like the sloped roof of a house. (If you drew an imaginary line from basketball rim to rim, the ceiling would be at it's tallest along this line, sloping down on each side as you move towards each sideline of the basketball court.)

If you're not familiar with strobes in a large setting this may not be the best time to experiment on a large scale.

This is no time to mess with lighting gear you're not familiar with.

I'm starting to think this is my best option, given the setup, my limited experience, and my lack of setup time.

You can do 1/60 exposure without too much worry about squirming kids. Be sure your lens selection can handle a wide group and give yourself some room to crop down.

I have 20mm, 24mm, 28mm, 35mm, 40mm, and 50mm primes. I'll bring most of them with me, but I think a 35 should work. I may use the Canon 35/2 IS lens, especially if I shoot at 1/60.

Are you planning on using the bleachers in the gym?

No. It's an "event" with a group photo at the end. I don't think they want the bleachers out, and I don't think they'd help much anyway. The bleachers are small (maybe 5 rows?), and they're only on one side of the court. (5 rows of 100 people certainly isn't ideal...)

I don't see how you would get that wide of a shot indoors. I have not been in a lot of gyms but the few I have are not all that big. Long and a bit shallow.

The gym is fairly narrow. I'll be shooting along the longer dimension of the gym (basically from one of the baskets). I've shot numerous events in the gym before. I'm certain my full frame 20mm prime lens will be more than wide enough. I think a 35mm prime should work, but I'm planning to bring plenty of options to cover all my bases.

I vote for cherry picker. If possible, mount camera on clamp or use tripod.

I'm thinking the cherry picker is the best option. With a ladder, I'd be worried about losing my balance (and also no chance for a tripod). I may be able to use a tripod (or at least one of those heavy-duty Gorillapod things clamped to the rail) in the cherry picker.

The gym was well lit as far as intensity but the color balance was nearly impossible to correct.

This gym seems bright enough (although basically everything is painted white except the floor). I've shot sports in this gym at ISO 6400 f/3.2 1/640 when I needed the shutter speed to freeze action. (Those numbers are from memory, but it's close to that level of light, maybe even a touch brighter.) There was a goofy color cast issue with a lot of the images (which seemed to vary from image to image, so I couldn't apply a universal correction even though I was shooting fully manual) - I was able to get most of the images to look reasonable with some adjustments in Lightroom.

I used two 750 w/s monolights at full power bounced off of the white ceiling about half way between me and the bleachers to help with color balance. More power would have been better, but it worked.

I didn't realize the ceiling was (a) as high as it is - around 45 feet at it's peak and (b) the entire ceiling is angled. It could certainly be done, but both of these factors would seem to make bouncing the light more difficult.

My biggest problem was a few of the kids thought it would be cool to give a one-fingered salute in every frame. I sent a cropped version of them to the vice principal. Luckily, I had a few test frames I could PS in where they weren't "saluting".

! Hopefully I won't have that issue, but if I do, I'll probably take your approach and share with the principal!

Thanks again for the suggestions everyone - this is extremely helpful! I really appreciate it!



Oct 29, 2014 at 07:33 PM
Steve Wylie
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


If you use a slow enough shutter speed, the varying color casts shouldn't show up, unless one or more of the bulbs is either different from the rest, or about to go south. I'd be more concerned about even coverage.

As for the one-finger salute, that happened to me once, too. It wasn't just the finger, but the look that accompanied it. Got the kid suspended for a day (couldn't have happened to a better candidate). From that time forward, I've told large high school groups that "you don't want to be 'that guy', because you're just wasting my time and everyone else's here today." So far, it's worked.



Oct 29, 2014 at 11:51 PM
dmacmillan
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Advice re: 500-person group shot in a gym


I know I'm starting to sound like I work for them, but I suggest getting an X-Rite Passport Color Checker if you don't have one. It goes way beyond simple white balance. You use it with the provided software to create custom profiles, which corrects individual colors. I've been very impressed with the results I get with it.

Best of luck on your shoot!



Oct 30, 2014 at 06:04 PM





FM Forums | People Photography | Join Upload & Sell

    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.