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Archive 2014 · Neutral B & W printing

  
 
J4644
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Neutral B & W printing


Hi,

I have a Canon iPF6300 that I have been using for the past 18 months. My B & W prints usually contain some color casting in them. I have just started reading about making better B and W prints and it is very daunting to say the least. I thought I would ask the FM members for some advice. I do not know which direction I should go in here.

Is it possibly to get neutral B and W prints without using special software or dedicated printers with special ink sets? I would like to see if I can improve my workflow first before spending money on other items. But I get the impression that a dedicated printer for B and W is probably unavoidable. If that is the case, which printer should I be looking at? I do not want to alter my Canon at this point. Should I be looking at Bowhaus and their software, Piezographic inks, a RIP like Quadtone or would something as simple as using Silver Efex improve my prints?

I assume that no matter how good your image is on a good calibrated monitor, as far as B and W is concerned, that the printer is the problem here because it is adding color to your print. Is that essentially true?

Any help on this would be appreciated.

Jim



Oct 26, 2014 at 11:11 AM
howardm4
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Neutral B & W printing


Take a look here...........

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/bw_printing/bw-test-image-2.html

He's got GOBS of in on BW printing and he uses Canon large format.



Oct 26, 2014 at 11:30 AM
J4644
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Neutral B & W printing


Hi Howard,

Thank you for the info. In my travels of the internet I have come upon his site a number of times. There is much information there. I just read some more about B and W printing on Keith's site but still would like to know about certain aspects. I have been using Epson's Premium Luster for much of my prints and I am getting the impression that that may be a place to look at, using different papers that may be better suited to B & W.

Jim



Oct 26, 2014 at 05:23 PM
chez
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Neutral B & W printing


If you want a dedicated B&W printer, I'd go the piezography route. I converted over an Epson 3800 to piezography inks and the results I'm getting are truly great. I have a Z3100 printer that I use for colour and it produces nice B&W, but from a tonal perspective, the piezography prints are heads and shoulders atop of a colour based ink set.


Oct 26, 2014 at 06:39 PM
J4644
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Neutral B & W printing


Chez,

I have read that the Z3100 does a good job with B & W. If you are seeing even better results with the converted 3800, that is very good. What system are you using, Cone's etc. and what particular ink set.

Thanks,

Jim



Oct 27, 2014 at 04:37 AM
kdphotography
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Neutral B & W printing


The latest generation professional wide format printers do an excellent job producing B&W images. That's simply the state of the art. They are that good with both color and B&W. My Epson 9900 does a great job with color and B&W images.

But deep down inside, I wanted to know, if there is something better, without being too much of a pita to acquire, and without resorting to living in a cave of a darkroom. Enter B&W K7 Piezography by Jon Cone. In short, I've converted an old 9800 and am now using a 9890 K7 B&W piezography MPS printer alongside the 9900.

The 9900 produces great B&W images, but in every single instance, the piezography print is just better. It's not at the level of saying the 9900 image is horrible---simply not true. You wouldn't notice unless you start comparing and then you notice the differences. Knowledge can be a powerful thing (sometimes better not to know!)

You should be aware that converting a used Epson printer to piezography isn't always as easy as it seems or is told. Not all patients make it off the surgery table. Your printer should be in excellent shape---dampers, capping station, head, etc. There are little nuances to each printer model---they aren't the same! (That includes the venerable 38** series and 99** series). I converted a brand new 9890 to K7 B&W MPS piezography. That should tell you how much I like the B&W piezography alongside the 9900.

Be aware quality printing on an Epson is never a "push the button" proposition, at least not for those that really want to produce top quality images. K7 Piezography is no different, and it does require patience, reading, and a moderate understanding of your printer innards. The print workflow uses QTR and is quite different than printing color images, but not difficult to learn.

There are a few piezography resources on the web (Cone), but unfortunately sometimes it seems confusing and difficult to find at times, and requires you to piece the information together. It is worthwhile to print a few images using the various BW K6/K7 insets and on various substrates to see what flavor fits you best.

Ken



Oct 27, 2014 at 07:50 AM
dmacmillan
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Neutral B & W printing


I find true B&W prints from my Canon Pixma Pro 9500 to be very neutral. I like the fact that it uses pigment inks.

I actually don't make very many monochrome prints that are true neutral B&W prints. Most often I'm using tones, especially duotones or even quad tones. Luckily, software and the Canon makes getting toned prints even.

The big problem with the Canon is that the ink costs are high, but that seems to be common with smaller large format (13x19) printers that use pigment inks.



Oct 27, 2014 at 08:47 AM
John Webb
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Neutral B & W printing


Currently been using the Quadtone Rip (QTR) on my epson 3800 and feel that I'm getting better bw prints than I was using either ABW or the or just PS for printing. Like the abilty using the standard epson inkset and through QTR adding a little warm or cool tones to areas of the image. With that said thinking about upgrading to the 3880 for color and then coverting the 3800 to a carbon inkset.

Regards



Oct 27, 2014 at 09:35 AM
RHPS
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Neutral B & W printing


If you can't get acceptable (neutral) B&W from your ipf6300 then it suggests the profiles aren't quite good enough. What's your color management routine? You said you have been using Epson paper, but do you have a profile for that paper on your printer?


Oct 27, 2014 at 12:30 PM
J4644
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Neutral B & W printing


Ken,

Thank you. If you converted a new 9890 to K7 MPS piezography then you must be very happy with those results. The QTR, as far as I can tell, does not support Canon printers. I think the only option I have for Canon is to go with Bowhaus. I am trying to learn as much as I can about that software as we speak.

May I ask what is your favorite paper to use with B and W printing?

Jim



Oct 28, 2014 at 05:21 AM
J4644
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Neutral B & W printing


Hi dmacmillan,

It is nice to know that you can get neutral B and W prints from your Canon printer without any additional software or inks. Makes me think that my profiles are bad.

Thanks,

Jim



Oct 28, 2014 at 05:27 AM
J4644
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Neutral B & W printing


Hi John,

I have heard some very good things about QTR. As far as I know though, it does not support Canon printers. So I would have to get an Epson. Not sure I want to cross that bridge just yet.

Thanks,

Jim



Oct 28, 2014 at 05:29 AM
J4644
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Neutral B & W printing


RHPS,

I had custom ICC profiles made for the two Epson papers I use, Epson Premium Luster and Epson Exhibition Canvas Matte. On the Canon LCD I have RC Photo Luster added via the MCT. I assume that I then have that profile of that paper on my printer. Is that correct? As for a bad profile, when I soft-proof and plug-in the Epson paper profile I see significant changes to the image ( with simulate paper color and black ink both checked ). It is more than I would like. But when I plug in a Canon RC paper for the profile I still see significant changes. It appears that the Epson and Canon profiles are giving the same results. I would think that that tells me that my Epson profile is good, at least as good as the Canon's. Is that a correct assumption?

Thank you,

Jim



Oct 28, 2014 at 05:41 AM
kdphotography
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Neutral B & W printing


B&W Piezography only supports Epson Printers (and the occasional Roland via Jon Cone) using custom QTR curves developed specifically for Piezography. For other printers there are eboni inks and a few others. Cone's Piezography has excellent support.

While it is true you can get very good B&W prints from stock printers, they simply cannot rival the quality of B&W output from a dedicated B&W printer. K3 (three black inks) versus K7 (seven black inks) is no contest.

You can use most any fine art printing substrate, including rare expensive substrates and even uncoated papers, though special care needs to be taken. In my printing studio I focus on what I believe are only the best fine art substrates (less my storage room get overwhelmed!) and avoid the less worthy papers such as the standard lustres, the realm of the normal printer world. I figure if you are going through the trouble of seeking "better/best" B&W (or color) prints, shouldn't you be using better and albeit more costly fine art papers? I print for other photographers and artists who do seem to appreciate my using better fine art materials.

Consequently, Epson lustres and their ilk don't get to play on my K7 Piezography printer. I've gravitated towards Cone 2 for my matte B&W K7 printing, which has a very nice soft tactile feel to the paper. For MPS gloss K7, I've gravitated towards Cone 5 which produces the quality of a fine art B&W fibre print. Those are my two favorites for matte and gloss K7 B&W printing, though I can and do use other high quality fine art papers.

Ken



Oct 28, 2014 at 07:55 AM
J4644
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Neutral B & W printing


Ken,

Thank you. I totally agree that the best materials should be used in photography, art, woodworking etc. The problem for me is that I have no experience using any other papers other than Epson Luster, Epson Canvas and Breathing Color watercolor. I like to buy rolls for a number of reasons and just need some suggestions on other papers to buy that will give me better results in B and W than what I am getting now.

You mention Cone 5 for MPS gloss K7 but I assume that the results would be very different if I used that on my Canon with it's OEM inks. So I still need someone to tell me which papers I should be looking into.

Jim

Edited on Oct 28, 2014 at 03:16 PM · View previous versions



Oct 28, 2014 at 10:24 AM
kdphotography
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Neutral B & W printing


Ahhh, okay Jim.

Try looking at the offerings from Hahnemuhle, for both matte and gloss options. Hahn Photo Rag Baryta is a good standard offering for a gloss lustre type finish. Canson is another one of my favorite paper suppliers., Platine Fibre Rag is a my favorite there. Breathing Color is my go-to choice for canvas; I also like their oba-free matte papers as well.

A lot depends on your own personal preferences as well as the type of image---in choosing the best fine art substrates.

ken



Oct 28, 2014 at 01:44 PM
J4644
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Neutral B & W printing


Ken,

Thank you. I will look into those suggestions.

Jim



Oct 28, 2014 at 03:18 PM
Daniel Smith
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Neutral B & W printing


Why not use the printer to make a digital negative and then go into the darkroom and make full size B&W contact prints from it?


Oct 30, 2014 at 05:23 PM
J4644
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Neutral B & W printing


Hi Daniel,

If you are referring to a traditional darkroom, I do not have access to one.

Thank you,

Jim



Oct 30, 2014 at 05:50 PM





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