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Archive 2014 · question on focal length

  
 
aladyforty
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · question on focal length


would a 600 lens on a 5DIII have similar reach to a 400 lens on a 7DII or for that matter a 7D?


Oct 16, 2014 at 10:49 AM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · question on focal length


I fear your about to open that can of worms again

but just taking the WHOLE image into consideration yes is quite close

1.6 crop with a 400 = 640mm





Oct 16, 2014 at 11:04 AM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · question on focal length


What is the point of your question? Since weight is an issue for you, why would you (if you are) be thinking about a 600mm lens? You certainly can't handhold it and would you want to pack it around with a tripod, etc?'

Get yourself a 7D2 and a used 400 DO for Xmas. The 400 will AF with both a 1.4x and 2x TC on the 7D2.



Oct 16, 2014 at 12:30 PM
aladyforty
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · question on focal length


I just ordered the tamron 150-600, I can manage my hubby sigma 150-500 which I think would be similar weight wise. was just trying to work out how much reach on my 5DIII it would give me compared to my 7D and 100-400. no way I can afford a 400 do


Oct 17, 2014 at 12:42 AM
aladyforty
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · question on focal length


I most likely will get the 7DII anyway


Oct 17, 2014 at 12:44 AM
docsmiles17
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · question on focal length


As Ian pointed out, its simple math.

Crop X focal length

ie 1.6 X 400=640



Oct 17, 2014 at 12:55 AM
aladyforty
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · question on focal length


maybe I should have explained, after cropping in to get a decent image of a bird, will the full frame measure up sharpness wise to the crop. In any case I will be testing the lens on both


Oct 17, 2014 at 01:00 AM
SeattleBirdMan
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · question on focal length


A 7DII with the Tamron @ 600 should give better detail than the 5D3 with the same lens. And assuming you keep the iso down to 1600 my guess is that the noise will be okay on the 7DII


Oct 17, 2014 at 01:07 AM
docsmiles17
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · question on focal length


aladyforty wrote:
maybe I should have explained, after cropping in to get a decent image of a bird, will the full frame measure up sharpness wise to the crop. In any case I will be testing the lens on both


Having a sharp image goes a lot farther than simply what body you are shooting with. Which lens, af point, settings, filters, etc, etc all play a role in sharpness.

If you are referring to crop of a 7DII vs 5dIII, I can't really comment as I have not shot with 7DII. It also depends upon how much you need to crop but I can tell you the 5Diii 1:1 crops are sharp, obviously assuming you have a sharp image to begin with. It also handles noise very well with high ISO's.

Best way to tell is to rent a body and test with your lenses and what you shoot regularly.



Oct 17, 2014 at 02:01 AM
docsmiles17
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · question on focal length


SeattleBirdMan wrote:
A 7DII with the Tamron @ 600 should give better detail than the 5D3 with the same lens. And assuming you keep the iso down to 1600 my guess is that the noise will be okay on the 7DII


Really?... do you have sample images showing this? If so, post them.



Oct 17, 2014 at 02:11 AM
kevindar
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · question on focal length


docsmiles17 wrote:
As Ian pointed out, its simple math.

Crop X focal length

ie 1.6 X 400=640


it actually is and is not simple math. that math happens to be incorrect.

the reach is roughly 1.44 and and not 1.6x between 7d and 5d3. You get bonus point if you figure out why. Here is a hint. 7d2 will have about a 1.52x reach over 5d3. of course this all assumes a pixel is just a pixel and size does not matter. (any we know how much of myth that is) but reach calculations is generally predicated on that assumption.



Oct 17, 2014 at 02:14 AM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · question on focal length


kevindar wrote:
it actually is and is not simple math. that math happens to be incorrect.

the reach is roughly 1.44 and and not 1.6x between 7d and 5d3. You get bonus point if you figure out why. Here is a hint. 7d2 will have about a 1.52x reach over 5d3. of course this all assumes a pixel is just a pixel and size does not matter. (any we know how much of myth that is) but reach calculations is generally predicated on that assumption.


which is why i said

but just taking the WHOLE image into consideration yes is quite close

1.6 crop with a 400 = 640mm


note the word WHOLE image . and also I said its opening a can of worms

thats the simple math . FOV .

if you want to go down the pixel density route then fine .

by the way just taking those worms and throwing them all round the place .

if tested my 7D against my 5D3 with the same lens at the same focal length , and the result of cropping the 5D3 file down to the same FOV as the 7D is usually still better . even if the 7D absolutely nails the focus it is only marginally better .

for me the best real world example i had for that was having shot 2 years of Moto Gp (british gp)
last year I shot the 7D with 120-300 (with and without a 1.4 TC) (480mm and 670mm equivs) and this year I shot the same lens with a 5D3 and 2x TC and comparing shots from the same spots(and still having to crop BOTH files) the results from the 5D3 combo are much better

maybe the 7d2 will be the wonder camera that is being talked about . If it can nail focus (it should) and the sensor resolve as much detail from the lens as possible then it will be the best 'reach limited' option



Oct 17, 2014 at 03:15 AM
aladyforty
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · question on focal length


well Im waiting on the Tamron at the moment, my reasoning for buying it was more about the 5DIII than the crop cameras. I want the reach and lately as I'm not shooting a lot of high speed stuff (if i do its with my 1DIII) I was thinking this would be a good compromise dollars wise as the 5DIII seems to do well with the sigma 150-500 which I'm told is not as good as the tamron. In the end if I'm happy with the images I get of birds, (lately more portrait style perched) Im ahead money wise. If I decide to get back into birds in flight, if the 7DII gets a good wrap I will buy it


Oct 17, 2014 at 06:10 AM
Photonadave
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · question on focal length


If you do a search on "5D III vs 7D reach" you will find other comparisons that correlate with Ian's experience. We'll just have to wait for comparison test reports and field tests of the 7D II to the 5D III after the 7D II hits the streets.

Of course other feature comparisons like lenses used, sensor noise, frame rate, AF and anything else anyone cares about will be weighed-in and debated with an emphasis on each individual's personal preferences and needs.

I feel its a "wait & see" situation as speculation and debate is the proverbial "can-O-worms" at this point.



Oct 17, 2014 at 10:16 AM
ebiggs
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · question on focal length


I have the Tamron 150-600mm and I have ordered the Sigma 150-600mm S version. I actually love the Tamron but in my experience the Sigma should be better. At least better in build and quality control.

I use mine on my 1Ds Mk III and 1D Mk IV. I find it really hard to tell a significant difference between my EF 100-400 on the Mk4 and the Tammy 150-600mm on the DsMk3.

They all make great photos and my guess is, you will have to pixel peep to see the difference. Since I am not a pixel peeper beyond curiosity I am just concerned on how the image looks when I and others see it as normal prints.

My first thought was, I would sell the Tammy as soon as the Siggy arrives but now I believe I will keep the Tamron, too. A nasty fault of mine when a lens comes here it has found a home. They rarely leave!
Oh, BTW, these are basically bright daylight lenses. At least they are far easier to get good results in good light.



Oct 17, 2014 at 10:16 AM
Photonadave
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · question on focal length


ebiggs wrote:
"when a lens comes here it has found a home. They rarely leave!"

Sounds like some of my relatives!



Oct 17, 2014 at 10:23 AM
Charlie N
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · question on focal length


the sharpest 400mm Lens on a canon APS-c can score 2600 on photozone's tests, while the tamron starts off around 2500 on FF, and sharpens further when stopped down.

So a 7D + 400 F5.6 should be able to get comparable results to a 5D3 + 150-600, however, the DOF will be thinner on the FF combo, and bokeh has to count for something. Generally, it'll be more pleasing to the eye with the FF combo.

you can verify this information with test charts: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=278&Camera=736&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=929&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=5&APIComp=0

Of course if you stop down the tamron a click or two, it should be able to pull away from any APS-C offering. You also have the added benefit of considerably better noise control at the same apertures.



Oct 17, 2014 at 10:57 AM
kevindar
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · question on focal length


Ian, I did not read your post, just the one I quoted.
Reach, as is often argued, is not so much about FOV, but pixel density or pixel per duck, which sounds like you are well aware off. Addmittedly, the narrower FOV, could have some focusing and tracking advantages.
I would not go so far to say, in my experience, upsizing the 5d3 yields me similar results to 7D, but I agree that size of pixel matters.



Oct 17, 2014 at 11:10 AM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · question on focal length


docsmiles17 wrote:
.... the 5Diii 1:1 crops ......


What is that supposed to mean?




Oct 17, 2014 at 11:16 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · question on focal length


There are some sort of simple ways to look at the question underlying this never-ending debate:

1. If you compare two systems with the same angle of view coverage (e.g. focal lengths that differ according to crop factor) and the same number of photo sites, lenses of equivalent "quality" (in terms, primarily, of resolution), the system with the larger sensor is always capable of greater resolution.

2. If you look at your real world photography — what you photograph and what you do with the photographs — you may find that this difference is irrelevant to your photographs. In other words, the potential difference that comes from a larger sensor (or film) turns out to be meaningless when you and others look at the photographs you produce.

3. Smaller systems produce very fine quality images these days. Cropped sensor cameras, used skillfully with good lenses, can produce excellent prints much larger than the vast majority of shooters will ever need.

4. For these folks — and, I'd say, most folks — the cropped sensor systems (forgetting for a moment the issue of lens quality and reach) will work just great. They will love the results, and would not likely really notice any significant difference from using the larger system.

5. To the extent that filling the frame with the subject is important, you can do that with a shorter focal length on a cropped sensor system than on a full frame system. This has some advantages that are likely important to many shooters: lower cost, smaller size, less weight. If the cropped sensor systems produce the quality you want/need, then these other factors trump image quality.

6. When it come to the interminable debate about whether the image quality will be better from an uncropped cropped-sensor shot with some lens or a cropped full frame sensor shot with the same lens, some of the same subjective issues apply — and perhaps "is it great for what I do?" may be the first question to answer.

7. If this hasn't settled it and your eyes are glazing over... don't worry about it. This likely isn't relevant to your photography. If your eyes have not glazed over and you are internally debating the relative effects of different numbers of usable photo sites, issues related to how lp/mm resolution plays out on the lens and the sensor... think about it and come to your own conclusions. ;-)

Dan



Oct 17, 2014 at 12:06 PM
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