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Archive 2014 · Multi-Layer Sensors

  
 
Schlotkins
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Multi-Layer Sensors


http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/10/multilayer-sensors-are-coming-from-canon-cr2/

We are up to CR2 zone. Sounds like an interesting idea, but I'm not exactly sure how multi-layer sensors would work or the physics behind it. I know you could record all colors at once if you had an RGB layer, but that's about it. I'd be curious for more information on pros/cons.

If it is true, I would assume it would be in a new fab... which may help some of the other issues with DR, etc.

Chris



Oct 08, 2014 at 01:57 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Multi-Layer Sensors


If Canon is able to produce a sensor that matches the acuity of Sigma's non-bayer multi-layer Foveon sensors while also solving the Foveon's color fidelity and noise issues then Canon will leapfrog the market in a huge way.


Oct 08, 2014 at 02:13 PM
adamx12m
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Multi-Layer Sensors


Where is "the impossible" microsite for this?


Oct 08, 2014 at 02:15 PM
intimistic
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Multi-Layer Sensors


Multi layer sensor tech is very interesting and you might want to take a look at the Sigma Foveon thread

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1287584/0

The sigma's 15mp cameras can compete with a 24-36mp camera.
They offer the possibility of
amazing color
amazing detail
And the absolute worst workflow known to mankind.

The best thing about canon developing this tech is the level of support they will bring to the table here.

Also it should be said that Canon, Nikon, Sony and Olympus all have patents for various multi layer sensor tech going back more then 20 years.



Oct 08, 2014 at 02:24 PM
johnsarra
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Multi-Layer Sensors


Different colors will achieve best focus at slightly different points, resulting in chromatic dispersion: http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/light_dispersion.htm. The Foveon sensor is basically a multi-layer sensor taking advantage of Chromatic dispersion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor. In addition to the claims made for the Foveon sensor, it might be possible for such a multi-layer sensor to take advantage of chromatic dispersion and provide an overall increase sharpness in an image. However, the Foveon folks don't claim an increase in sharpness, so the effect may be too small to be noticeable.


Oct 08, 2014 at 02:40 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Multi-Layer Sensors


intimistic wrote:
Multi layer sensor tech is very interesting and you might want to take a look at the Sigma Foveon thread

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1287584/0

The sigma's 15mp cameras can compete with a 24-36mp camera.
They offer the possibility of
amazing color
amazing detail
And the absolute worst workflow known to mankind.

The best thing about canon developing this tech is the level of support they will bring to the table here.

Also it should be said that Canon, Nikon, Sony and Olympus all have patents for various multi layer sensor tech going back more then 20 years.


Or from the flip side:

A 15 MP foveon sensor has the electronic complexity of a 45 MP sensor (15 MP x 3 layers), yet does not deliver more resolution than a conventional 36 MP sensor. It is extremely complicated to calculate correct colors without artifacts. Some people see this as amazing color. And the low light sensitivity is suffering badly.



Oct 08, 2014 at 02:50 PM
Schlotkins
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Multi-Layer Sensors


This is what I thought. Foveon is incredibly difficult. Now, Canon has a lot more engineers than Sigma so maybe they made some real progress.

One thing is for sure: I highly doubt Canon would put this in their flagship body if it wasn't DEFINITELY better than the current conventional sensor.

Chris



Oct 08, 2014 at 02:54 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Multi-Layer Sensors


I don't think multilayer means non-Bayer sensor. I think of it more as Canon's version of BSI (Back-illuminated silicon). If they can manufacture the sensor with separate layers for the photodiodes and for the switching circuits, they can get a long way with the current chip fab line width.



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:02 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Multi-Layer Sensors


alundeb wrote:
I don't think multilayer means non-Bayer sensor. I think of it more as Canon's version of BSI (Back-illuminated silicon). If they can manufacture the sensor with separate layers for the photodiodes and for the switching circuits, they can get a long way with the current chip fab line width.


There isn't a huge amount to gain from BSI for the pixel pitches they would likely target on a FF sensor.



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:04 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Multi-Layer Sensors


snapsy wrote:
There isn't a huge amount to gain from BSI for the pixel pitches they would likely target on a FF sensor.


I don't expect a huge gain from any technology. And the sources are talking about a high resolution FF sensor.



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:07 PM
curious80
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Multi-Layer Sensors


snapsy wrote:
There isn't a huge amount to gain from BSI for the pixel pitches they would likely target on a FF sensor.


I won't be too sure about that. Samsung has used BSI in their new 28MP APS-C sensor, so they clearly see an advantage in using BSI at that density. 28MP APS-C corresponds to about 63MP FF, which is in the realm of 56MP sensor rumors that have been floating around for Canon's new sensor.

Saying that, I don't think that multi-layer sensor is a term anyone would use for a well-established technology like BSI.




Oct 08, 2014 at 03:17 PM
kewlcanon
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Multi-Layer Sensors


Is this also coming from that famous psychic ? .


Oct 08, 2014 at 03:18 PM
intimistic
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Multi-Layer Sensors


alundeb wrote:
I don't think multilayer means non-Bayer sensor. I think of it more as Canon's version of BSI (Back-illuminated silicon). If they can manufacture the sensor with separate layers for the photodiodes and for the switching circuits, they can get a long way with the current chip fab line width.


Bayer sensor can be multi layer in fact canon uses multi layer for focusing currently.



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:22 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Multi-Layer Sensors


curious80 wrote:
I won't be too sure about that. Samsung has used BSI in their new 28MP APS-C sensor, so they clearly see an advantage in using BSI at that density. 28MP APS-C corresponds to about 63MP FF, which is in the realm of 56MP sensor rumors that have been floating around for Canon's new sensor.

BSI only yielded a 1/3 EV noise improvement on the Sony RX100 1" 20MP sensor, much higher density than Samsung's 28MP APS-C or the future FF equivalent.



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:28 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Multi-Layer Sensors


curious80 wrote:
Saying that, I don't think that multi-layer sensor is a term anyone would use for a well-established technology like BSI.



Isn't BSI protected by patents?



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:30 PM
intimistic
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Multi-Layer Sensors


This article might be of interest:
http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/canon_sensor_patent.html

This is for a patent that was filed in 2011 and published in 2013 not the new patent.

Edited on Oct 08, 2014 at 03:33 PM · View previous versions



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:31 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Multi-Layer Sensors


snapsy wrote:
BSI only yielded a 1/3 EV noise improvement on the Sony RX100 1" 20MP sensor, much higher density than Samsung's 28MP APS-C or the future FF equivalent.


But that was with a 180 nm process or something like that? the picture is different for Canon's 500 nm process. Or why is everobyd talking about the limitations of the 500 nm process?



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:33 PM
curious80
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Multi-Layer Sensors


snapsy wrote:
BSI only yielded a 1/3 EV noise improvement on the Sony RX100 1" 20MP sensor, much higher density than Samsung's 28MP APS-C or the future FF equivalent.


That's true. But I would still like to see the results from the Samsung BSI APS-C sensor to see what they achieved with that. Hard to imagine they would go to BSI for an even less gain than 1/3EV.



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:35 PM
intimistic
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Multi-Layer Sensors


alundeb wrote:
Isn't BSI protected by patents?


Yes Sony, TSMC, Fuji, Micron Tec, and more have BSI patents
also patents expire 17-20 years I believe.



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:52 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Multi-Layer Sensors


alundeb wrote:
But that was with a 180 nm process or something like that? the picture is different for Canon's 500 nm process. Or why is everobyd talking about the limitations of the 500 nm process?


I suppose if Canon stuck with 500nm they'd see more than the usual gain from BSI as they tried shrinking the pixel down since the pathways @ 500nm take up so much more space. But I would think Canon would switch to their 180nm line for a newer, higher-density FF sensor.



Oct 08, 2014 at 03:56 PM
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