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Archive 2014 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem

  
 
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


There has been a nice thread on the best 135mm lens for A7r.

The problem of a wide angle lens is more difficult. I would like to see a similar discussion on lenses in the 20-25mm range.

I like the concept of the Leica WATE, and I am okay with an f/4, but I am not going to layout 6 grand to solve this problem. Good design and efficient, precision production should be able to solve the problem at a more democratic price. Design and effective production should be rewarded.

I am glad Zeiss is making the Otus lenses. The elite producers should be producing such lenses as a kind of advertising for their more affordable lines, but if Zeiss should make a 24mm lens that is 5.5 inches long and weighs over 2 pounds, it would be an absurd lens for the A7r. The Zeiss 21mm is too large and heavy.

I will probably buy the S/Z wide angle zoom, if it turns out to good. It is too big, but it could be carried on trips devoted to photography. Or I might get the 24mm TS E for that purpose. I am probably willing to sacrifice the flexibility of a zoom for high quality images.

But I carry the A7r with the FE55 most of the time, daily. I would like to have a 24mm f/2.8, al least no larger (amd hopefully smaller) than the 55mm that I could carry in a vest pocket. I would be happy with an f/4 to gain size, but no one is likely to make such a lens as it probably wouldn't sell. I suppose Zeiss will make what I am looking for in their new line. But what is there now? I suspect there is something out there that might solve my problem at a bargain price, or surely for $1200-1500.

I can start by saying the FD 24mm f/2.8--or at least the copy I have--isn't it.



Sep 25, 2014 at 09:21 AM
molson
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


Surprisingly (to me, anyway) the Nikkor AIS 24mm f2.8 that I have has so far been the best-performing 24mm focal length lens I've tried on the A7R.

I recently acquired a Zeiss Contax 25mm f2.8, but haven't had a chance to use it yet.



Sep 25, 2014 at 09:29 AM
mikedefieslife
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


Same here. I'd love an affordable solid wide angle lens.

I've got the Olympus 28/3.5 and it's not wide enough on some of the narrow streets here, and the colours and micro-contrast aren't the best.



Sep 25, 2014 at 09:58 AM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


If you can find one, the Zeiss Contaflex 126 Distagon 25/4 should be adaptable to the little Alphas. I'm not sure how affordable it will be.


Sep 25, 2014 at 09:59 AM
tsdevine
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem



I agree, I have the AI version and I like the rendering stopped down better than the FDn 24mm I have.

molson wrote:
Surprisingly (to me, anyway) the Nikkor AIS 24mm f2.8 that I have has so far been the best-performing 24mm focal length lens I've tried on the A7R.

I recently acquired a Zeiss Contax 25mm f2.8, but haven't had a chance to use it yet.




Sep 25, 2014 at 10:35 AM
mikedefieslife
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


I imagine that the Nikkor is quite large on the A7. Nikon have the longest flange distance which doesn't help.

The thing is when the 16-35mm it's going to be around £1,300 which is fair enough if it's a good lens. I'd like to see something come out that's half that price though. The Zeiss badge on the side of it doesn't mean a thing to me.



Sep 25, 2014 at 10:48 AM
tsdevine
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


But I think that is part of the reason it performs well. For WA lenses designed for film, the sensor stack isn't accounted for. The further the lens is away from the sensor, it has a better chance of performing well. The FDn has even a shorter flange distance than the EF mount (left alone F). On the edges, I don't think it performs as well as the Nikon. I can't prove that it is due to the aforementioned theory though.

Obviously there will be exceptions.

-Tim

mikedefieslife wrote:
I imagine that the Nikkor is quite large on the A7. Nikon have the longest flange distance which doesn't help.

The thing is when the 16-35mm it's going to be around £1,300 which is fair enough if it's a good lens. I'd like to see something come out that's half that price though. The Zeiss badge on the side of it doesn't mean a thing to me.





Sep 25, 2014 at 10:53 AM
molson
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


mikedefieslife wrote:
The Zeiss badge on the side of it doesn't mean a thing to me.


On the Sony lenses, it means they paid a fee to Zeiss to use the name, and little more.

Whether the 16-35 is any better than the mediocre 24-70 remains to be seen...



Sep 25, 2014 at 10:59 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


mikedefieslife wrote:
I imagine that the Nikkor is quite large on the A7. Nikon have the longest flange distance which doesn't help.


The Nikkor with adapter is just under 3"'s and around 13oz's. For what they go for, the Ais 24/2.8 is a very nice option unless you are super critical about extreme corner sharpness. The Nikkor shows a sharp drop right at the corners. On the plus side, it doesn't show the zone b dip seen by a few other lenses that have shown decent detail in the corners (I'm thinking of the Minolta MD 24/2.8). Color and contrast with the Nikkor is impressive imo.




Sep 25, 2014 at 10:59 AM
molson
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


Oops... never mind.

Edited on Sep 25, 2014 at 11:32 AM · View previous versions



Sep 25, 2014 at 11:05 AM
arduluth
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


molson wrote:
You complain that the Nikon 24mm f2.8 is "quite large", and yet you're also considering the significantly larger and heavier (and optically inferior) Canon 24mm f3.5L TS-E?


Maybe I missed something from an earlier thread, but mikedefieslife isn't the OP.



Sep 25, 2014 at 11:08 AM
molson
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


arduluth wrote:
Maybe I missed something from an earlier thread, but mikedefieslife isn't the OP.


Thanks - I missed that.



Sep 25, 2014 at 11:33 AM
Matt Grum
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


I agree the 20-24mm zone is a tricky one until we get some good native lenses (I'm hoping for a Zeiss Loxia, Sony lenses have been getting increasingly huge of late).

For now I picked up a multi-coated Olympus Zuiko 21mm f/3.5 for less than £300, performs decently on the A7ʀ as it's an SLR design with a longish register. It's also absolutely tiny.

I'll post some sample images when I get home.

Edited on Sep 25, 2014 at 11:39 AM · View previous versions



Sep 25, 2014 at 11:37 AM
tsdevine
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem



My 24 2.8 AI acts just as you describe. I also can corroborate the MD 24/2.8 behavior, forgot that I had tried that. The corners were very nice, but the dip was unacceptable from my perspective.

-Tim

Tariq Gibran wrote:
The Nikkor with adapter is just under 3"'s and around 13oz's. For what they go for, the Ais 24/2.8 is a very nice option unless you are super critical about extreme corner sharpness. The Nikkor shows a sharp drop right at the corners. On the plus side, it doesn't show the zone b dip seen by a few other lenses that have shown decent detail in the corners (I'm thinking of the Minolta MD 24/2.8). Color and contrast with the Nikkor is impressive imo.






Sep 25, 2014 at 11:39 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


After my bad experience with the Leica 35/2 Summicron-M ASPH lens on the A7R (some good reviews were published after I tried this with the same findings about bad corner sharpness at infinity throughout the aperture range of this lens) I recommend in general to stay away from (wide angle) rangefinder lenses which have a protruding element reducing the lens-sensor distance on the A7 series. Unfortunately information about Leica rangefinder lenses on the A7 system is hard to find, some reviews describe unclearly which lens exactly was tested (ASPH or not-ASPH for example). If somebody has a table or some summary which Leica (wide angle especially) lens tested on the A7/A7R works and which doesn't with its limitations and why, this would be a great help.


Sep 25, 2014 at 11:43 AM
sebboh
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


retrofocus wrote:
After my bad experience with the Leica 35/2 Summicron-M ASPH lens on the A7R (some good reviews were published after I tried this with the same findings about bad corner sharpness at infinity throughout the aperture range of this lens) I recommend in general to stay away from (wide angle) rangefinder lenses which have a protruding element reducing the lens-sensor distance on the A7 series. Unfortunately information about Leica rangefinder lenses on the A7 system is hard to find, some reviews describe unclearly which lens exactly was tested (ASPH or not-ASPH for example). If somebody has a table or some
...Show more

we tried to make one a while back, the problem is people have different definitions of what works and doesn't. guys like steve huff shoot a bunch of portraits and close distance and say a lens works fine while some landscapers say a lens won't work if it has any kind of corner softness at any aperture.

as far as i know, none of the rangefinder 24mm-25mm lenses work well on the a7r, they all have corner smearing till f/11 (and sometimes there too).

the only rangefinder 21mm that seems to work at all is the cv 21/1.8 (and the WATE of course). i find it acceptable, but others do not.




Sep 25, 2014 at 12:17 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


Here are my thoughts on wider lenses by focal length.

At 24/25mm:
You say you do not want ultra-expensive or ultra-big lenses and that rules out some of the one's that perform really well (e.g., Leica 24 lux ASPH--really expensive; Canon 24 f/3.5L TSE II; Zeiss ZE/ZF 25 f/2), but there are some other interesting lenses. As people have mentioned the Zeiss 25 f/2.8 in Contax/Yashica mount is a nice small size. I think you will find it is sharp and has nice colours, but I think you will also find it lacks strong micro contrast (i.e., resolution for small structures) in the outer part of the frame. Still it is a very nice lens. If you can live with a lens that is a bit bigger the ZF/ZS 25 f/2.8 has better micro contrast in the outer part of the frame.

The Minolta MC/MD 24 f/2.8 (and the Leica R 24 f/ 2.8) which have the same optical formula are nice lenses, but they do have a noticeable zone B dip even at f/8 at infinity. For close up shots this lens is very good, but less so for infinity focussed landscapes. One intriguing variation of this lens, however, is the Minolta MC/MD 24 f/2.8 VFC (stands for variable field curvature). I would love to see someone try this out on the Sony cameras. The lens lets you manually set the amount of field curvature which may improve its performance with the thick sensor glass on the Sony cameras. The VFC model is the same length as the non-VFC, just a few mm fatter.

If you value the smallest size then the Olympus OM 24 f/2 or f/2.8 are very nice lenses with good across the frame sharpness and are very small.

There is also the Nikon 24 f/2.8 that several have mentioned and noted its performance. The Zeiss C/Y, Minolta MC/MD, and the Nikon are all very similar in size and fairly close in size to the FD 55 f/1.8.

At 21mm:

Again the clear very good performers are either large or uber expensive (The Leica WATE or lux ASPH and the Zeiss 21 f/2.8). If you want small the Olympus OM 21 f/2 or f/3.5 are tiny, and I think realistic options, but they do have their limitations. There is also the Voigtlander 21 f/1.8, which really isn't that small (it is about 50% bigger than the FE 55 f/1.8) and from samples I still see issues in the corners and edges. If you are willing to consider this big of a lens, then I think it is also worth considering the Leica R 19 f/2.8 vII, which is only about 10% bigger and looks to me like a lot better performer. There are other small DSLR lenses, but I am not impressed by any of them.

At 17/18mm:

Again the clear non-problematic options are either large or uber-expensive (the Leica WATE, the Canon 17 f/4L TSE), so what is left some issues. One option is the Olympus OM 18 f/3.5, which is again a very small lenses. It has heavy vignetting and good across the frame sharpness, but lacks strong sharpness, IMO the colour could be better, and contrast. This is the profile for Olympus OM lenses. If you like it, then you have some very clear options. If you don't, then it is much harder finding what works. In addition, there is also the Zeiss ZM 18mm f/4. It is quite small (smaller than the FE 55 f/1.8) and shows good performance across much of the frame, but the last part gets pretty bad. I have thought about this lens as a potential 21mm with a bit of cropping and I think it is a fairly strong option using it that way, but as an 18, IMO, it is clearly compromised.

That's my take. If you have the patience and can pick up a Minolta 24 f/2.8 VFC (there is currently one for sale at KEH for just over $1,000, which is a high price compared to what they have gone for on ebay), it would be great to see how it performs. Perhaps someone will get one and let us know if varying the field curvature can counteract the problem with the thick cover glass on the Sony cameras.



Sep 25, 2014 at 12:23 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


sebboh wrote:
we tried to make one a while back, the problem is people have different definitions of what works and doesn't. guys like steve huff shoot a bunch of portraits and close distance and say a lens works fine while some landscapers say a lens won't work if it has any kind of corner softness at any aperture.

as far as i know, none of the rangefinder 24mm-25mm lenses work well on the a7r, they all have corner smearing till f/11 (and sometimes there too).

the only rangefinder 21mm that seems to work at all is the cv 21/1.8 (and the WATE of
...Show more

I have seen credible reports and pictures suggesting that the 21 lux ASPH and 24 lux ASPH also work, but this is of course little help as they each cost over $5,000.



Sep 25, 2014 at 12:25 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


This is already very helpful information, Steve and sebboh! Appreciate your writing and efforts to tell me since I am still learning with this kind of MF lenses. I am already set with some small 28 and 24 mm lenses (I am using an older Exakta 28/2.8 lens which performs excellent and a Canon 24/2.8 FD lens). I was looking more for a 35/2 or 35/1.4 lens, and the smallest good performers which I found are Leica lenses. The newer versions obviously don't work well on the A7R at infinity - the 35/1.4 Summilux is sometimes stated as good performer, but there was a recent post here on FM which clearly showed that also this lens still has unsharp corners on the A7R. And I am not going to buy such expensive lens if it has any - even slight - performance issue on my A7R. What I don't know is how the older, very small Leica 35/2 versions are performing - I did not find any test of those with the A7R.


Sep 25, 2014 at 12:36 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · The A7r Wide Angle Problem


retrofocus wrote:
This is already very helpful information, Steve and sebboh! Appreciate your writing and efforts to tell me since I am still learning with this kind of MF lenses. I am already set with some small 28 and 24 mm lenses (I am using an older Exakta 28/2.8 lens which performs excellent and a Canon 24/2.8 FD lens). I was looking more for a 35/2 or 35/1.4 lens, and the smallest good performers which I found are Leica lenses. The newer versions obviously don't work well on the A7R at infinity - the 35/1.4 Summilux is sometimes stated as good performer,
...Show more

At this point, if I was interested in a 35 f/2 and wanted it primarily for landscape shots, then I would probably just wait for the 35 f/2 Zeiss Loxia. It won't have perfect corners, but it probably will do noticeably better than any of the other small options. I am personally not interested in this lens, because I use 35mm mostly for closer shooting and portraits and I think the Loxia, from the samples I have seen, will not have good enough bokeh for my tastes and I really want a f/1.4 lens. Still it might be just what you are looking for. Stopped down it ought to have performance that is almost as good as the Zeiss ZM 35 f/2 on Leica cameras.



Sep 25, 2014 at 12:47 PM
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