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Archive 2014 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r

  
 
shirozina
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


I have the R on an adapter but it's a big combo. I'm looking at the 4th ( pre aspherical) version of the M to reduce the size and am assuming it will be optically better as well - right or wrong?



Sep 20, 2014 at 06:04 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r




shirozina wrote:
I have the R on an adapter but it's a big combo. I'm looking at the 4th ( pre aspherical) version of the M to reduce the size and am assuming it will be optically better as well - right or wrong?

If you have the second version R with the built in hood, it is optically very similar to the fourth version M. Mandler just modified the design to make it work a bit better as a rangefinder lens. If anything the R might be slightly better as the larger size has fewer compromises (eg, vignetting). So, I wouldn't expect the M to be better or worse. What you are trading is size for price.



Sep 20, 2014 at 06:26 AM
shirozina
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


Thank's Steve.Just done some more research and yes they are optically the same lens in a different housing. On the R it's set back from the front of the lens and on the M it's pushed forwards so as you say it's just a size issue which considering the price it will cost to change I think I can live with


Sep 20, 2014 at 07:05 AM
sebboh
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


shirozina wrote:
Thank's Steve.Just done some more research and yes they are optically the same lens in a different housing. On the R it's set back from the front of the lens and on the M it's pushed forwards so as you say it's just a size issue which considering the price it will cost to change I think I can live with


they are not the same, though they are very similar, the m is a better performer. the elements are allowed to be a bit closer to the film plane and recalculated on the m due to the lack of mirror box. you can see the improvement this allows in the mtfs:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3858/15111371859_309dc8d8a9_b.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5554/15294987221_c0eb04bb2a_b.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5567/15275098026_4c7d13c5a4_b.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3914/15111584837_5c7225f774_b.jpg



Sep 20, 2014 at 10:20 AM
carstenw
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


However, this improvement might not make it onto the images of an A7r!


Sep 20, 2014 at 10:25 AM
sebboh
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


carstenw wrote:
However, this improvement might not make it onto the images of an A7r!


it does in this case. it's also is helpfully smaller.




Sep 20, 2014 at 10:29 AM
carstenw
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


Really, so the corners are strong wide open (as strong as on an M)? Hmm, maybe I should consider one... Nah, too many 50s already


Sep 20, 2014 at 10:50 AM
sebboh
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


carstenw wrote:
Really, so the corners are strong wide open (as strong as on an M)? Hmm, maybe I should consider one... Nah, too many 50s already


i haven't seen a direct comparison with the m240, but they seem stronger with the a7r versus the R version. not really surprising since the exit pupil distance is almost the same between the R and M version.




Sep 20, 2014 at 11:16 AM
JaKo
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


Outcome may be a bit different on digital, but here is what Puts had to say a while back:

Subject: Summicron-R versus Summicron-M
From: [email protected] (Erwin Puts/imX)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 11:45:37 +0200

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A number of readers of the magazine I am writing for asked me to
investigate the differences (if any) between the two standard 50mm lenses
for the R and M.As you may know, both lenses use the same optical formula,
but the R lens is physically larger, the lensdiameter is bigger an it is
slightly retrofocus, in order to accomodate the 47mm distance from
lensflange to film (the M has 27,8mm). I started this research with a full
two week tour (on holiday) shooting all scenes (day and night, buildings,
animals, landscapes, persons, closeups and far distance shots, in the sun
and on cloudy days), twice (with both lenses that is). I made sure my
shutterspeed was never below 1/125 or using a tripod. I ended up with more
than 400 transparancies on Agfa RSX50 and Kodak Ektachrome 100S (the new
one). Than I mixed all the pictures before projecting them. I failed to
identify in a statistically valid manner the M or the R pictures.
Then I went to the testwall and shot a new series of pictures (again on
RSX50). Under the microscope (50xenlargement)I could see some differences
in flatness of field and micro contrast. The projection howver did fail to
show it.
Then I used the optical bench (from leica). Here I noticed a more
pronounced curvature of field and some slight astigamatism in the outer
zones. The resolution figures of the M version were also slightly better in
the corners and the outer zones.
The people of Leica provided me with the MTF graphs and again the
microcontrast of the M is better, translating in a better retention of
sharp details in the very fine image structures.
So I put some Fuji Velvia in the cameras, shot again a number of
transparancies, now under carefully controlled outdoor shooting (overcast
sky, heavy tripod, calibrated handheld meter etc). And now I was able to
see the difference: the M lens is indeed slighty sharper, but you need an
enlargement factor of more than 15x to see it. The R lens on the other side
while losing some microdetails had a smoother representation of the object
structures. However: 1/3 of a stop from the optimum exposure (for the
Velvia) ruined the micro contrast and the resolution of the fine details.
The lesson: it takes some work to push both lenses to the outer limits of
performance. And the differences while clearly visible are in a different
direction. The best lens in this case is not easy to identify. The ultimate
in sharpness is provided by the Summicron-M, the smoothest image by the R.
The ideal lens still has to be computed.
Maybe this story gives you some food for thought.
Erwin Puts


PS.
Just as the OP I considered swapping R E55 for M v.4(5) but at the end I decided it was not worth since I could use R version (Leitax-ed to F mount) on my film cameras.



Sep 20, 2014 at 11:59 AM
Greggf
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


Interesting...thanks Jack! The question to me is, after using both E55 50 Cron and Lux(but not the M's), is why with the M's did they put 10 blades, and only 6 in the R's? And the R had a smoother rendition....wow! From what I've read, the M Cron has the most "pop" of any 50!! Technical stuff aside, the R isn't really that big on the A7's...and is much better in the corners than Lux R, too.


Sep 20, 2014 at 12:44 PM
sebboh
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


Greggf wrote:
Interesting...thanks Jack! The question to me is, after using both E55 50 Cron and Lux(but not the M's), is why with the M's did they put 10 blades, and only 6 in the R's?


the R had to close and open the aperture blades quickly so that the lens is stopped down to the correct aperture when the shutter opens. the m lenses have no auto aperture so they could have slower moving aperture blades.




Sep 20, 2014 at 01:03 PM
shirozina
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


Now I have to rethink this. The R is pretty characterful wide open - sharp all over but with an overlaid soft glow to the image which is actually quite attractive.


Sep 20, 2014 at 01:08 PM
sebboh
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


shirozina wrote:
Now I have to rethink this. The R is pretty characterful wide open - sharp all over but with an overlaid soft glow to the image which is actually quite attractive.


the m is like that too.



Sep 20, 2014 at 01:34 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


I found the focus transition between the M (built-in hood) and Canadian R (built-in hood) to be smoother on R, and the bokeh is slightly smoother wide open, but the M has lower SA wide open and gets sharper across the frame faster when stopping down. For me, the M made the better all-arounder.


Sep 20, 2014 at 02:45 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


The R is a great lens even on the A7r. Oddly, I have owned three copies of this lens - all late 70's Canadian - and have seen a little variance in performance. The first two seemed to have more of the Leica glow wide open mentioned above but became amazingly sharp across the frame by 5.6. The last one I owned was sharper wide open with less of the Leica glow (actually one of the best performing 50's I have used wide open) but it seemed to have a bit less character at F4 than the others (the others seemed to become crazy sharp at F4 over most of the frame). All were great lenses and bargains for what they cost. If I find an M cheap enough, I may have to give it a try (though that Loxia Planar is looking mighty enticing). The Summicron R 50 is one of the lenses where the graph doesn't seem to always match up with the real world.

Here is how the lens performed for Pop Photo back when Pop Photo was actually reliable with regard to testing (early 80's test I believe). There test shows the incredible performance I saw at F4.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5540407/LeicaR50.jpg



Sep 20, 2014 at 03:01 PM
shirozina
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


Thanks for all the replies. I don't have any issues with the image quality from the R and even better would be I think just superfluous but I do want to minimise bulk. I have an extensive EOS system for commercial use which I recently upgraded by replacing the 5d2 with an A7r and metabones adapter.I also had a M43 system for personal use and video but gave it up whenI realised a 2nd A7r body and a few choice lenses could do the same job but with much better results. Currently that is an OL 28mm 3.5 ( just seems to get better with more sensor resolution) and is tiny and has great character. 50R - as already stated. A 90 or 75 RF lens will complete the set in the near future as will an A7s to do video so everything is on the same platform. For video especially I think character may be more important than outright resolution. Will keep the 50mm m on my watch list though but they are currently 2-3 times the price for what I paid for the R and not sure I can justify it.


Sep 20, 2014 at 04:01 PM
Greggf
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Summicron 50mm F2 R vs M on A7r


sebboh wrote:
the R had to close and open the aperture blades quickly so that the lens is stopped down to the correct aperture when the shutter opens. the m lenses have no auto aperture so they could have slower moving aperture blades.



Thanks Derek...learn something new everyday!!



Sep 20, 2014 at 06:01 PM





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