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Archive 2014 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M

  
 
Arka
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p.7 #1 · p.7 #1 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


Interesting idea, though given it's special edition status, I expect we're talking about 600 cameras that will never be used to shoot anything. Heck even unboxing is likely to be conducted with the kind of gloved hands we see in that unbelievably pretentious marketing video. As someone who loves using my M-kit, I found that bit of marketing to be way over the top.

I don't know that I'd ever by a Leica M without an LCD screen. RFs are great for focusing until they aren't, such as when the mechanism or a lens goes out of alignment. I learned that the hard way on my M and a handful of lenses, though everything runs perfectly a few hundred dollars in maintenance later... That said, I was able to put that maintenance off for a few months thanks to the use of LV focusing for certain lenses. There's little doubt in my mind that LV adds some incredible versatility to this camera, particularly when shooting UWA lenses.

Also, the M electronics (especially it's handling of CF cards) isn't exactly so reliable that I would trust the camera to be doing the right thing without my being able to see that certain images were being captured.

That said, I really like the ISO dial, and I hope they can incorporate something like that into the next version of the M... maybe a touchscreen without navigation buttons, and an ISO wheel.




Sep 18, 2014 at 01:31 AM
Arka
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p.7 #2 · p.7 #2 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


edwardkaraa wrote:
I remember during film days, we used to just know it when we really nailed The Shot. Nowadays we will always go back to the LCD to see if we nailed the shot and magnify to 100% to see if we really nailed the focus right. We spend more time chimping than shooting. Well, this camera is made specially for us weak souls


In the film days, there wasn't an obsession for viewing at 100% and wondering if one could print the files to some enormous, billboard-type size and still have every grain of sand of skin pore be perfectly sharp. In the limited amount of film photography I did, I never took a loupe to my final prints, and rarely enlarged beyond 8x12.

By contrast, if you want to "make the most" of a 24MP AA-less sensor, the demand for accurate focus is far greater than it was for film. Not saying that we should be so sharpness-obsessed, but that does seem to be the photographic culture nowadays.



Sep 18, 2014 at 01:56 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.7 #3 · p.7 #3 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


Arka wrote:
In the film days, there wasn't an obsession for viewing at 100% and wondering if one could print the files to some enormous, billboard-type size and still have every grain of sand of skin pore be perfectly sharp. In the limited amount of film photography I did, I never took a loupe to my final prints, and rarely enlarged beyond 8x12.

By contrast, if you want to "make the most" of a 24MP AA-less sensor, the demand for accurate focus is far greater than it was for film. Not saying that we should be so sharpness-obsessed, but that does seem
...Show more

Totally agreed, though my initial post was not really about sharpness, but rather about catching a decisive moment. During film days, without LCD and immediate feedback, we just knew by gut feeling that we got a winner. This ability is lost in digital, because I will immediately go to the LCD to check if I've got the shot, perhaps losing more shots because of that.

Moreover, when I studied photography 3 decades ago, a lot of emphasis was made on "pre-visualisation". It was the ability of the shooter to imagine in advance what the shot would/should look like. This was important because the first opportunity to see the shot will be at least in 24 hours or more, after the film is processed. This ability was the difference between a good and a mediocre photographer. Again, this ability is not important anymore, because of you lack it, you take a shot and correct according to what you see on the LCD.



Sep 18, 2014 at 05:59 AM
airfrogusmc
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p.7 #4 · p.7 #4 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


"Not saying that we should be so sharpness-obsessed, but that does seem to be the photographic culture nowadays."

Photo forum culture LoL...



Sep 18, 2014 at 06:58 AM
Mescalamba
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p.7 #5 · p.7 #5 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


edwardkaraa wrote:
Totally agreed, though my initial post was not really about sharpness, but rather about catching a decisive moment. During film days, without LCD and immediate feedback, we just knew by gut feeling that we got a winner. This ability is lost in digital, because I will immediately go to the LCD to check if I've got the shot, perhaps losing more shots because of that.

Moreover, when I studied photography 3 decades ago, a lot of emphasis was made on "pre-visualisation". It was the ability of the shooter to imagine in advance what the shot would/should look like. This was
...Show more

Hehe, actually its as much as important as it ever was. I know cause I usually fail at this. If you shoot with "I have no idea what Im doing", then unless you have a lot of talent, you are lost. Its still same, talent and ability to "see images" before they are taken.

Chimping on LCD wont make anyone better photographer, only from technical side.. but, funny enough, thats not what about taking pics is. (obviously if one fu**s up technical side, it doesnt help, its good to know "how to", but its not that most important part I think)


I wouldnt mind using this Leica. With perfectly calibrated RF, no problem.. Tho I would maybe add some "old fashion" exposure meter.



Sep 18, 2014 at 08:12 AM
goosemang
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p.7 #6 · p.7 #6 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


airfrogusmc wrote:
"Not saying that we should be so sharpness-obsessed, but that does seem to be the photographic culture nowadays."

Photo forum culture LoL...



Exactly.



Sep 18, 2014 at 09:44 AM
Arka
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p.7 #7 · p.7 #7 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


edwardkaraa wrote:
Totally agreed, though my initial post was not really about sharpness, but rather about catching a decisive moment. During film days, without LCD and immediate feedback, we just knew by gut feeling that we got a winner. This ability is lost in digital, because I will immediately go to the LCD to check if I've got the shot, perhaps losing more shots because of that.

Moreover, when I studied photography 3 decades ago, a lot of emphasis was made on "pre-visualisation". It was the ability of the shooter to imagine in advance what the shot would/should look like. This was
...Show more


No doubt that pre-visualization is key; it's what separates good photos from the obvious snapshot. One thing I like about the Leica M (even the LCD-paneled digital one) is that the workflow requires pre-visualization whether you use the LCD or not. I don't think the camera is particularly good for truly candid, off-the-cuff photography, at least not until you develop a very keen awareness for your environment, and how to use the camera. That said, I am definitely guilty of using the LCD to try and correct things in a subsequent shot. I'm trying to get out of the habit of chimping and possibly losing images in the process, as I think it simply nurses insecurity about whether I was making some systemic error in exposure or focusing. Now with the new firmware (supporting auto-ISO in manual mode) and a properly adjusted rangefinder, however, I've been able to move past these neuroses. However, I still very much value the LCD as a tool for instantly knowing whether there's something amiss with the rangefinder/lens combination that requires adjustment.



Sep 18, 2014 at 04:35 PM
flash
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p.7 #8 · p.7 #8 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


airfrogusmc wrote:
I've been shooting with a 35L for a very long time and have shot it on just about every high end body Canon makes and difference in sharpness, bokeh and focus reliability between the Leica and the canon is really night and day.

There are many reasons why I am moving from Canon to Leica M even for my commercial work and Leica M glass is just one reason...


Totally agree.

I shoot the vast majority of my professional work on my M's. I shot Canon for 20 years and have several mirror less and DSLR systems. However, while they are all great 95% of the time, when the AF decides enough is enough (like with strongly backlit runway models last week) the M makes it easier to get some shots, every time. If modern DSLR's allowed the use of precision split screens you could just go old school. But they don't

Maybe I'm getting old but mostly the only tool I want to make decisions for me is the one holding the camera.

Gordon

p.s. I still don't want a film camera or a digital one without a screen. But like the Monochrom I'm pleased Leica has the guts to produce one.

Gordon



Sep 18, 2014 at 06:09 PM
mawz
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p.7 #9 · p.7 #9 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


Arka wrote:
Interesting idea, though given it's special edition status, I expect we're talking about 600 cameras that will never be used to shoot anything. Heck even unboxing is likely to be conducted with the kind of gloved hands we see in that unbelievably pretentious marketing video. As someone who loves using my M-kit, I found that bit of marketing to be way over the top.



Honestly, if I had $15k that I could afford to blow, I'd buy one just to live in my bag, shoot a bunch and get nicely brassed, if only to annoy the collectors and whomever made that video.



Sep 18, 2014 at 07:09 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.7 #10 · p.7 #10 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


Arka wrote:
No doubt that pre-visualization is key; it's what separates good photos from the obvious snapshot. One thing I like about the Leica M (even the LCD-paneled digital one) is that the workflow requires pre-visualization whether you use the LCD or not. I don't think the camera is particularly good for truly candid, off-the-cuff photography, at least not until you develop a very keen awareness for your environment, and how to use the camera. That said, I am definitely guilty of using the LCD to try and correct things in a subsequent shot. I'm trying to get out of the habit
...Show more

Or post visualization is just as valid.

The West Coast school Adams Weston etc were pre visualization (which Adams said doesn't mean starting with a pre conceived idea but controlling the process so you can capture what you saw in your minds eye at the moment of exposure).

And then there is the East Coast School which is Winogrand, Freedlander, Frank which is you just go out and work instinctively and choose what you think works later or post visualization.


The last is more in line with using a rangefinder and pre visualization is more associated with the zone system and a view camera.



Sep 18, 2014 at 08:22 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.7 #11 · p.7 #11 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


I have to disagree this time Allen. Pre-visualization does not necessarily mean careful planning, view cameras, and zone system. Maybe in the narrow sense, yes, but in general, it is applied to shooting anything, even a Holga. In spontaneous street shooting it may mean waiting for the right moment that you know will happen in a few seconds before you press the shutter. And this is how you know you got it when you hear the shutter click. Because you saw it happen in your "mind's eye". I am very sure that the East Cost School photographers were as good, even better, in pre-visualization, than the West Coast. In fact, it is the most important skill in photography, of course, in my opinion. Without bragging, I know that I have it, because I trained it for over 30 years. Most of the time, I find myself pre-visualizing even when I don't carry a camera. I'm sure everyone here has it too, otherwise they won't be here in the first place


Sep 18, 2014 at 09:19 PM
rattymouse
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p.7 #12 · p.7 #12 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


edwardkaraa wrote:
Most of the time, I find myself pre-visualizing even when I don't carry a camera. I'm sure everyone here has it too, otherwise they won't be here in the first place


What the hell is wrong with you Edward? Not carrying a camera? Knock it off!







Sep 18, 2014 at 09:25 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.7 #13 · p.7 #13 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M




rattymouse wrote:
What the hell is wrong with you Edward? Not carrying a camera? Knock it off!



Yeah, sometimes I'm too lazy



Sep 18, 2014 at 09:31 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.7 #14 · p.7 #14 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


edwardkaraa wrote:
I have to disagree this time Allen. Pre-visualization does not necessarily mean careful planning, view cameras, and zone system. Maybe in the narrow sense, yes, but in general, it is applied to shooting anything, even a Holga. In spontaneous street shooting it may mean waiting for the right moment that you know will happen in a few seconds before you press the shutter. And this is how you know you got it when you hear the shutter click. Because you saw it happen in your "mind's eye". I am very sure that the East Cost School photographers were as good,
...Show more

I didn't say it was only view cameras but that school of thought is more often associated with zone system large format. One method is not better then the other. Most are usually a bit of both. I know I am. Winogrand liked to wait a very long time before processing his film to give himself some time to later see with fresh eyes. I too have been training my vision for 30 + years. I see photographs all the time even when I don't have a camera. I'm not sure it's pre visualizing it's just seeing. I really like these words by Meyerowitz in the trailer for a really good film if you haven't seen it and is the reason I love to work on the street.
http://www.traileraddict.com/everybody-street/trailer
Arbus would plaster her living room walls with work prints and decide which ones worked and which ones didn't after spending a lot of time with them. Some of the greats worked very intuitively and later would figure out what it all means. That doesn't mean they weren't seeing it just means that they didn't see as Adams said the complete finished print in their minds eye when they made their exposure. The only right way is what is right for each individual. How you get to the end photograph is personal and getting there is all that matters.



Sep 18, 2014 at 10:10 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.7 #15 · p.7 #15 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


airfrogusmc wrote:
I didn't say it was only view cameras but that school of thought is more often associated with zone system large format. One method is not better then the other. Most are usually a bit of both. I know I am. Winogrand liked to wait a very long time before processing his film to give himself some time to later see with fresh eyes. I too have been training my vision for 30 + years. I see photographs all the time even when I don't have a camera. I'm not sure it's pre visualizing it's just seeing. I really like
...Show more

Well said, Allen!



Sep 18, 2014 at 11:37 PM
Ian Boys
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p.7 #16 · p.7 #16 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


Can I just mention that pre-visualizing is not a thing. It's visualizing.


Sep 19, 2014 at 12:36 PM
sebboh
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p.7 #17 · p.7 #17 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


Ian Boys wrote:
Can I just mention that pre-visualizing is not a thing. It's visualizing.




no, pre-visualizing is when you visualize yourself visualizing the photo you're going to take.




Sep 19, 2014 at 12:37 PM
zlatko
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p.7 #18 · p.7 #18 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


edwardkaraa wrote:
Moreover, when I studied photography 3 decades ago, a lot of emphasis was made on "pre-visualisation". It was the ability of the shooter to imagine in advance what the shot would/should look like. This was important because the first opportunity to see the shot will be at least in 24 hours or more, after the film is processed. This ability was the difference between a good and a mediocre photographer. Again, this ability is not important anymore, because of you lack it, you take a shot and correct according to what you see on the LCD.


I disagree. Pre-visualization (or visualization) is as important as ever. Something has to happen *before* you make the photo and that something is still the difference between a good and a mediocre photographer. The LCD is an aid *after* the photo is already made. As such it may help in identifying problems to be fixed or improvements to be made. The LCD is a useful aide to pre-visualizing the *next* photo, but it doesn't actually show the next photo until after it's made. (And even then, it's a very small preview of that photo — not yet fully expressed by the photographer.) Thus pre-visualization still precedes every photo, as in the film era. A photographer who doesn't learn to pre-visualize the final result is still going to make more crap photos.

In other words, the LCD helps you see (sooner) whether you achieved what you pre-visualized. It doesn't pre-visualize for you, nor does it take away the need for pre-visualizion. With a screenless camera, you simply have to wait longer to see whether you achieved what you pre-visualized.



Sep 19, 2014 at 12:55 PM
pingflood
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p.7 #19 · p.7 #19 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


Ian Boys wrote:
Can I just mention that pre-visualizing is not a thing. It's visualizing.


Isn't it that pre-visualization is what you do before taking the image while post-visualization is trying to remember what the heck it looked like when you process is later?

I gotta say I am impressed with Leica's approach though. You remove something, add thousands of dollars to the price tag, and you have a superior and more desirable product. If this keeps up, eventually we'll end up with an empty box representing the "New Leica 0" (back to basics!) and the very essence of photography, retailing for around 200k USD. Of course, no one will ever know it's empty since opening it would ruin the value for collectors.



Sep 19, 2014 at 01:20 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.7 #20 · p.7 #20 · Leica M Edition 60 - Screenless Digital M


pingflood wrote:
Isn't it that pre-visualization is what you do before taking the image while post-visualization is trying to remember what the heck it looked like when you process is later?


No, thats's not it at all.

It's about working in two very different methods. Both are valid and we are usually a combination of both.



Sep 19, 2014 at 05:01 PM
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