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Archive 2014 · Jobu has a tripod now!

  
 
sjms
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Jobu has a tripod now!


jeetsukumaran wrote:
Ok, just heard back from Ian at Jobu Design (in less than an hour on Sunday night!):

So, no matter what else, we can put at least this suspicion about the integrity of the CF under the sun/UV to rest?


i'm glad you think so. we are talking about a wax here. you know a non permanent fairly easy wear product.




Oct 19, 2014 at 10:11 PM
sjms
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Jobu has a tripod now!


jeetsukumaran wrote:
So that means the Induro cosmetic layer is just CF, but the RRS cosmetic layer is non-CF? Or the other way around?

As for why I think they put in there? I don't know! I have not questioned this aspect of the engineering, because, for better or worse, I trust RRS would not knowingly put anything on that compromises the integrity of the product! And, similarly, I trust Jobu not to leave anything off that would compromise the integrity of their product as well!

But I would genuinely like to know how RRS actually protects their tripods from UV. Do you
...Show more

essentially the same as RRS, a picture of the fiber or winding.

conjecture? no. it is what is referred to as common practice. most everyone chooses their tubing then the finish for the conditions it will work in.

on a nice bright summer day in say Florida if you put a piece of cardboard over part of your body and left the rest open to Sol would the skin under that piece burn or darken depending on you complexion or would it react differently to open to the sun skin?

me, i need a big piece of cardboard personally.




Oct 19, 2014 at 10:21 PM
jeetsukumaran
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Jobu has a tripod now!


sjms wrote:
it is what is referred to as common practice. most everyone chooses their tubing then the finish for the conditions it will work in


And why do you think this common practice is not being practiced commonly by Jobu, whereas you are happy to assign, with the same level of a priori evidence, it to every other manufacturer?

As for the "wax" comment, I imagine you are as aware as I am that the term in the broadest sense refers to lipid based compounds, and even then you have synthetic vs. non., and only in the layman sense of the word does invoke the stuff birthday candles are made of? So, yes, it could mean someone was up late at night rubbing a candle on those legs. Or some other product that will melt on a warm summer's day in Kansas even. Now that would mean a spontaneous loss of all intelligence, wisdom and common sense of every party involved before investing in a new business product, as complaints are going to roll in as everyone finds their legs sticky. So, maybe not?






Oct 19, 2014 at 10:29 PM
sjms
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Jobu has a tripod now!


evidently you answered it yet again with a statement from jobu:
Customers can ensure a long lasting product by reapplying an automotive style UV inhibiting wax every year, or more often if scratches or marks are visible from repeated hard use.

longevity will be determined by use in the long run. wax the legs like waxing your car. it takes just a few minutes but is needed to continue the UV deterrent. i haven't waxed my legs nor is it required for maintenance with car wax.


Edited on Oct 19, 2014 at 10:51 PM · View previous versions



Oct 19, 2014 at 10:46 PM
jeetsukumaran
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Jobu has a tripod now!


sjms wrote:
we are talking about a wax here. you know a non permanent fairly easy wear product.


Ok, at this point I think there is not going to be any convergence of opinion, unfortunately.

To me, the criticisms of the design falling short of some needs are valid enough, given those shooting needs.

But this idea that the legs are somehow going to degrade in UV despite more evidence being presented than available with any other manufacturer that explicit steps have been taken to prevent is no longer just a healthy skepticism born of experience. Especially when the evidence offered that the other manufacturer's are protecting their tripods with some magical coatings that are expected to exist based on a common sense that happen to be the special or exclusive purview of those manufacturers.

I am glad to have gone through this discussion. I learned a lot about carbon fiber. As a scientist, I work with data. And I have to say that as of this point, I have not seen anything yet, in the way of data, to indicate that any of the carbon fiber legs under discussion might fail under UV or any other conditions in which they are going to be used. I also have not seen anything yet to support the feeling that Jobu somehow or other is going to crank out some legs that are going to fail under the sun due to failure to take into account something that is, as you say, "common practice".

Perhaps I just attribute the same amount of (subjective) integrity, intelligence, responsibility and "common sense" to Jobu that you do to RRS/Induro/Gitzo/etc., that allows you to think the latter's legs are going to hold up in the sun but not the former.

Because otherwise there is absolutely no hard evidence whatsoever by even the most recklessly loose application of the term that has emerged at any this discussion, to indicate that one of these company's CF tubes is going to degrade under UV, or that, for some reason, one of these companies has failed to do due diligence in product research that would result in my legs collapsing several years down the line. [Well, to be honest, I do not know much about Induro. As a long time RRS user, I have learned to trust their design and engineering. And as for Jobu: well, I was willing to take a risk as an early-adopter of a new product; the responsiveness of the company coupled with what I learned in this discussion allows me to say that, as of now, I have no reason to think of them as having any less integrity or investment in their products than anyone at RRS].





Edited on Oct 19, 2014 at 10:55 PM · View previous versions



Oct 19, 2014 at 10:51 PM
sjms
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Jobu has a tripod now!


go forth and take many beautiful images.


Oct 19, 2014 at 10:54 PM
jeetsukumaran
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Jobu has a tripod now!


sjms wrote:
go forth and take many beautiful images.


I will

Furthermore, assuming that I am still around on this planet a year from now, I will post back here and update on whether or not those legs are still around or are a pile of chalky dust.

How's that sound?



Oct 19, 2014 at 10:57 PM
sjms
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Jobu has a tripod now!


works for me. but remember no car wax. no maintenance as such i don't need to do. and no dark closets.
i have a feeling you'll be around for some time.



Oct 19, 2014 at 11:02 PM
jeetsukumaran
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Jobu has a tripod now!


sjms wrote:
works for me. but remember no car wax. no maintenance as such i don't need to do. and no dark closets.
i have a feeling you'll be around for some time.


No car wax, no maintenance, and no dark closets: agreed I don't want to need to fuss over the tripod like it was some sort of pretty for-show race car or something. It is going to work as hard and as rough as all my other sticks!



Oct 19, 2014 at 11:38 PM
Methodical
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Jobu has a tripod now!


sjms, I noticed you mention the leveling base. I've contemplated the RRS leveling base for my TVC 33. Can you provide some information on the leveling base? I'm just trying to see if I really need it or not. Do you use one? Why?

The TVC-33 is a sweet tripod. It looks good, too.

Thanks...Al



Oct 20, 2014 at 11:58 AM
jeetsukumaran
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Jobu has a tripod now!


So, sjms, this morning I just decided to call RRS to ask about the UV protection of their tripods. I spoke to Jim. He said that no protection was necessary (on the part of users), and he had never heard of any RRS CF legs failing due to UV degradation. I asked if the legs had protective layer applied in production. He said they were "fully protected". I asked exactly what the nature of the protection was, e.g., was there some sort of clear coating or polymer or anything else that protected the carbon fiber epoxy from UV. He said that there was nothing of any such kind, and that the outer layer was just plain old epoxy-resin binded carbon fiber.

So, there you have it.

If you think that the above is in error, and you know someone at RRS who might know different, perhaps you might clarify yourself.

My entire point during all of this is not to that one set of legs was better than any other. It was that this idea that the Jobu legs were not (adequately) protected from UV while the RRS, Induro, etc. legs were, was based on absolutely no evidence, data, or anything at all really. Through this process, somehow or other RRS/Induro legs were suggested to be robust to UV due to asserted common sense, common practice and speculation (e.g., "what else would the cosmetic layer be for"), while the Jobu legs were asserted to be vulnerable to UV degradation due to lack of information to the contrary, even though the same lack of information was there with all the other manufacturers!! And that was what got me down this track: the data-free aspect of these assertions (coupled with some bias that led to speculation of robust practices of one side versus integrity-compromising practices of the other, but both made without any data or evidence or reason, really).

In all honest, I would be happy to find out that what I learned from RRS is wrong. If not, it could also just not matter. It could be a design decision due to the the fact that duration of exposure to UV in most usage might not degrade the CF to any appreciable amount before the lifetime of the photography (or RRS' 5 year warranty ...). This was suggested in that document I referenced above --- the CF parts here were exposed 24/7 in marine environments. You experience might indicate different, but, then, you are dealing with aircraft that are not just exposed almost continuously, but are flying at altitude where the UV is orders of magnitude higher.

However, until you find out otherwise, maybe you might want to contact Jobu and ask what UV protection wax they might recommend to use on your RRS tripods ?




Oct 20, 2014 at 12:14 PM
sjms
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Jobu has a tripod now!


well it looks like i'm going to eat a lot of crow here. you are correct. in my part of the industry we connot do this it will fail. in fact we are changing a flap right now for moisture infiltration. so you are right and i am wrong. it is resin over carbon. i bow to your persistance in setting me straight. my brovado bit me here. still no wax reqd. no excuse for me. forgive my overbaring stupidity









Oct 20, 2014 at 12:35 PM
hiepphotog
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Jobu has a tripod now!


I have to applaud your determination to dig deeper! I guess it's a matter of personal perspective. I think I enjoy this tripod more than I would with a Gitzo/Benro/Induro/Feisol tripod. Haven't had any experience with RRS tripod, but I don't need the modular apex design so I'm not inclined to pay more just for that. My leveling base/tripod head combo is the Photoclam Multiflex, and I know it would beat any leveling base that RRS can offer; faster to achieve multi-axis level with highest precision and repeatability. This is from my experience of shooting tons of multi-row panoramas.


Oct 20, 2014 at 12:44 PM
sjms
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Jobu has a tripod now!


Methodical wrote:
sjms, I noticed you mention the leveling base. I've contemplated the RRS leveling base for my TVC 33. Can you provide some information on the leveling base? I'm just trying to see if I really need it or not. Do you use one? Why?

The TVC-33 is a sweet tripod. It looks good, too.

Thanks...Al


well after eating crow on a subject i thought i knew about working working with it i'm not so sure i can help you. but what sot of info are you looking for?
here the hardware info:
http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/s.nl/it.A/id.7818/.f

its swap out time is about 2 minutes.it allows approx 15deg of leveling.



Oct 20, 2014 at 12:49 PM
sjms
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Jobu has a tripod now!


hiepphotog wrote:
I have to applaud your determination to dig deeper! I guess it's a matter of personal perspective. I think I enjoy this tripod more than I would with a Gitzo/Benro/Induro/Feisol tripod. Haven't had any experience with RRS tripod, but I don't need the modular apex design so I'm not inclined to pay more just for that. My leveling base/tripod head combo is the Photoclam Multiflex, and I know it would beat any leveling base that RRS can offer; faster to achieve multi-axis level with highest precision and repeatability. This is from my experience of shooting tons of multi-row panoramas.


and i owe you an apology too.

the multiflex is a slightly more sophisticated precision device compared to a half ball. that is a no contest matchup.

not exactly something i'd use to level out my gimbal setup.



Oct 20, 2014 at 12:49 PM
jeetsukumaran
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Jobu has a tripod now!


sjms wrote:
well it looks like i'm going to eat a lot of crow here. you are correct. in my part of the industry we connot do this it will fail. in fact we are changing a flap right now for moisture infiltration. so you are right and i am wrong. it is resin over carbon. i bow to your persistance in setting me straight. my brovado bit me here. still no wax reqd. no excuse for me. forgive my overbaring stupidity



Absolutely no apologies needed.

None at all.

I learned much about the tools that I use due to this, and that is always a good thing. And I am sure the same obtains with you as well.

More importantly, despite our obvious disagreement, everyone stayed civil, polite, and friendly even (at least, that was my impression). Very rare in today's internet.

As far as "eating crow" ... no such thing: we all benefited from the discussion.

Happy shooting!




Edited on Oct 20, 2014 at 05:11 PM · View previous versions



Oct 20, 2014 at 01:02 PM
hiepphotog
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Jobu has a tripod now!


sjms wrote:
and i owe you an apology too.

the multiflex is a slightly more sophisticated precision device compared to a half ball. that is a no contest matchup.

not exactly something i'd use to level out my gimbal setup.


no need for an apology. I have learned lots of things in this discussion . And it's different strokes for different folks I guess. I do use the multiflex to level my multi-row pano head (quite similar to a gimbal setup). The half-ball is inadequate for precise framing.



Oct 20, 2014 at 01:42 PM
sjms
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Jobu has a tripod now!


oh, yes there is. the world does not revolve around aviation and my overconfidence in my perceived knowledge.

as to the multiflex and a half ball. the half ball is used for video/cinema and general leveling only.



Oct 20, 2014 at 05:15 PM
Methodical
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Jobu has a tripod now!


I for one have lots of confidence in JoBu's products. I've been using their Gimbal since 2009; 3 of their gimbals. I chose JoBu over the ever popular Wimberley gimbal and have been satisfied. I have no doubt that their tripods would be no less quality than their gimbals. I've dealt directly with Ian which is a plus. I already have the RRS TV-33s tripod, so I am not in the market for another one, but I have no doubt that their tripod would pass the mustard. If I were in the market, they would definitely be on the list.


Oct 20, 2014 at 07:06 PM
sjms
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Jobu has a tripod now!


after being schooled with a CF tube over my head a few times i have a great deal of confidence it is an excellently made product.
in my perception of versatility needs i think will show up later in a different model.



Oct 21, 2014 at 07:34 AM
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