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Archive 2014 · Ideas for the forum

  
 
ben egbert
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Ideas for the forum


Deleted.

Edited on Sep 04, 2014 at 08:14 PM · View previous versions



Sep 04, 2014 at 09:45 AM
Bob Jarman
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Ideas for the forum


Ben,

With all due respect, I find the idea of 'rules' offensive and insulting. I have enough rules already.

Furthermore, Fred sets the guidelines and if he thinks necessary he'll weigh in. Recently he set a limit of 5 on the number of OP bumps permitted on presentation forums. That might be a good idea here, cut down on the incessant back-slapping and side conversations that go on. If necessary, side-chatter can be conducted via PM saving everyone else from the noise.

If a member misbehaves, report it. Two former members over the years have earned the "Hide" button from me. Works great. The community will establish and enforce norms of behavior.

One other option is inquiring whether a Technical Processing and Re-works board is feasible. Don't know, just a thought.

Bob



Sep 04, 2014 at 11:30 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Ideas for the forum


Bob Jarman wrote:
Ben,

With all due respect, I find the idea of 'rules' offensive and insulting. I have enough rules already.

Furthermore, Fred sets the guidelines and if he thinks necessary he'll weigh in. Recently he set a limit of 5 on the number of OP bumps permitted on presentation forums. That might be a good idea here, cut down on the incessant back-slapping and side conversations that go on. If necessary, side-chatter can be conducted via PM saving everyone else from the noise.

If a member misbehaves, report it. Two former members over the years have earned the "Hide" button from me. Works
...Show more

Deleted.I






Edited on Sep 04, 2014 at 08:15 PM · View previous versions



Sep 04, 2014 at 11:46 AM
AuntiPode
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Ideas for the forum


ben egbert wrote:
There is already a post processing and printing forum.


But, the post processing forum isn't a critique forum, as such. When an image with real potential is let down by post processing, criticism of PP is appropriate here. Sometimes PP is the low-hanging fruit of criticism. I suppose if we wanted to be pedantic, it could be argued that if we criticize PP, folks should repost to the post processing forum to ask how to accomplish what a critique suggests. However, in practice that would be a burden on folks posting images for critique. Also, showing a modified version of the original image is is easiest way to explain a critique. That doesn't necessarily mean the suggestion is to change post processing. For example, when I critique a composition, I may suggest more negative space or re-positioning the camera. I can illustrate the different that would make by building more space on one or more edges of an image or re-positioning an element. When I do that I am NOT recommending the poster do this in post processing. I am suggesting the poster should do that in-camera. My synthetic image is simply intended to illustrate my suggestion because "a picture is worth a thousand words".


1. I have found that you never get credit for how hard the shot was to get. Travel, hiking, weather etc does not count. Neither does experience level. Not saying it should be this way, just saying this is how I find it.


That is how it is and, as I see it, how it ought be. An image is critiqued as an image, not as a process. How much work was needed is not relevant. We may respect the work. We may honor it. We may admire it. But as I understand the nature of traditional critique, such notions are not critique. They would be appropriate on the content forums such as landscapes and black and white where process is more legitimately a part of the subject.


2. FM is a world wide forum and attracts some of the world’s best. Even a person who takes home all the prizes at the local camera club is probably a rank beginner here.


Nah. You don't have to be a renown master to offer a critique. More importantly, folks who seek a critique can accept or reject critique suggestions as they wish. We are just folks trying to help folks improve there images and better achieve their visions. A novice may post a critique and may offer good insights and are welcome to do so in my book.


3. If you want to build participation, we need to find ways to avoid slamming the door in this persons face. Critique needs to allow for different levels. Not just of the place they are now, but the place they could ever be. There are only a few Ansel Adams and you cannot create them just with tutorials and practice. Anyone can grow, but not all will arrive at the top.


Obviously. However, your point suggests this forum isn't that way now and I disagree.


1. We need to find ways to comment on stuff outside our taste or interests.


Disagree. We all don't need to critique any/all images. For example, I don't comment much on run-down buildings, rusted cars and a few other tired cliches, to me, because I doubt I could be fair or encouraging. If you can't be helpful, it's much better to be silent. Some photographic sub-specialties have specialized conventions and expectations. If someone offers such an image, I can only critique the general and basic image execution issues, if/as appropriate. I can't critique them as specialist in the field would. If an image is outside our limits of taste or knowledge, I'd suggest the best response is to leave the image for critique by someone better suited.


3. Post processing is part of the total package so we can’t ignore it in critique, but it ought not be the prominent thing.


Critiques are about how to improve an image. If an image is otherwise good but could benefit from improved PP, then PP critique would be all that's appropriate. And, for some images the folks offering a critique may only WANT to offer PP critique for various legitimate reasons. For example, a critique of a family portrait might be offered by someone who doesn't know much about posing and composing portraits but who knows his PP. It would be fair and proper that he only offers PP criticism.


4. When a comment is made about a problem, some justification should be given as well. It appears over processed because I see too much shadow recovery is an example.


Impractical. We generally don't know what the scene looked like or what the camera capture was like or how an image was processed. Sometimes I know an image was over-processed or wrongly processed. I can comment on what I see, but not on how it went wrong.


5. Critique should always include what works as well as what does not work.


Disagree. There can be many proper reasons to not comment about more than a subset of what works or doesn't work, including only comments about what works or only comments about what doesn't work.


6. Speak about what the image evokes, what do you see, how much impact did it have?


Sometimes appropriate. Sometimes not. For example, if an image is about a graphic design, it's intent would be obvious, it's emotional impact a non-issue. Whether it's a strong graphic would be about all one can suggest. For many images, I know folks who'd be very offended if I wrote their image had no emotional impact or meaning. Kindness demand some issue be addressed delicately, if at all. I don't post here intending to offend people. I may accidentally and unintentionally offend someone, but that's not my intention. There are times I don't post full critique comments because I feel it likely I'd hurt feelings or offend.


7. Personal taste should be respected not a target for change.


Too subjective. Too easy to label short-coming out-of-bounds as personal "taste". More importantly, critiques are not intended just for the person who posts an image for critique. I know MY critique suggestions are intended for the audience of all the folks who read them on the forum. An offered image critique may help others who don't share the tastes of the photographer who posted the image for critique. For example, if someone's taste is to always center a subject in a frame, beginners who read the critique forum need to understand that most folks will find it poor composition, despite the fact the poster believes it's a matter of his personal taste. Such a critique isn't intended to change the poster's taste but to help other readers achieve better compositions. Posters need to understand that all comments on a thread are not intended solely for the poster.




Sep 04, 2014 at 05:53 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Ideas for the forum


Well thats two against it. I guess I am off base here.





Edited on Sep 04, 2014 at 07:04 PM · View previous versions



Sep 04, 2014 at 06:48 PM
Michael H
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Ideas for the forum


I really wanted to get involved and garner the value in feedback on my images as well as offering insight from my own decades of experience.

But I'm out. Have your little playground and I'll go back in my corner.

Good luck. I will only add this. Ben, you are the biggest single reason I'm leaving here. I suspect that influence has kept this forum down to the active handful. I wish you nothing but the best but I'm jumping off this crazy train. Be blessed.




Sep 04, 2014 at 06:54 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Ideas for the forum


Michael H wrote:
I really wanted to get involved and garner the value in feedback on my images as well as offering insight from my own decades of experience.

But I'm out. Have your little playground and I'll go back in my corner.

Good luck. I will only add this. Ben, you are the biggest single reason I'm leaving here. I suspect that influence has kept this forum down to the active handful. I wish you nothing but the best but I'm jumping off this crazy train. Be blessed.



If you like I can go. I have a hard time understanding what I said wrong but clearly I am.



Sep 04, 2014 at 07:06 PM
Michael H
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Ideas for the forum


No, I'm fine going Ben. I'm a newcomer to this section of FM.

As I said I wish you and all others the best. I hope this works out. I may visit again sometime but I'm done for now. Honestly I'm not even sure why I looked here again. I guess it was an instinct reaction to seeing a new posts notification.



Sep 04, 2014 at 07:15 PM
sbeme
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Ideas for the forum


Ben,
I think you have been slammed.
I am not entirely sure why, but one part I think is a strong negative reaction to the style of your effort and suggestion: a bit too rule-bound/defined for most of us.
However, there is a lot I agree with, without responding liine by line.

I agree the tone of the forum is important in fostering learning, openness to different ideas, interpretations, levels of experience, areas of expertise. I think it is valuable to indicate what one likes and why, as well as the nits. For the OP and for others looking in. Which is most people.
While often personal, sometimes idiosyncratic, and perhaps different from the intent of the photographer, added one's evoked reaction can be very useful information. Sometimes I post without specific comment for several reasons: I want to know what response/reaction I get, ideally not too filtered; I want to see if others pick up on or find significant technical or composition errors I see so that I can gauge the significance; sometimes I want to see if anyone "cares" about the shot....does it evoke any reaction.
The line between personal taste and suggested changes is a difficult one. When I doubt, I try to comment on "this is my personal taste", or following Kent, trying to get at the OP's goal and if it is being achieved. And sometimes I keep quiet.
I appreciate your adding your comments to my images and others, even if not your current or past area of interest. I think its great for all of us to try to actively contribute in whatever way we can, including posting images we make with various degrees of doubt and confidence.
I am sorry others feel they might leave in response to your honest efforts to continue to improve and maintain the excellence of this forum

Scott



Sep 04, 2014 at 07:37 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Ideas for the forum


Thanks Scott. I started by deleting my FM bookmark, but then I took a walk and thought it over.

I think I just need to back away. My style in posting like my style in Photography is just out of tune here.

I am now unsure I can even make comments to images. But for sure I will make make no further efforts to build or rebuild a dead forum.

I would really appreciate it if any of you dislike my posts, please put me on the hide me list and I will do likewise.



Sep 04, 2014 at 08:14 PM
AuntiPode
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Ideas for the forum


ben egbert wrote:
But for sure I will make make no further efforts to build or rebuild a dead forum.


Doesn't seem dead to me. And you wonder why people get offended.



Sep 04, 2014 at 10:18 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Ideas for the forum


The stats

I counted the number of posts in the last 13 hours to the major forums. This does not begin to count the comments, which in some forums are very high. I skipped the gear forums which are really high volume and the special purpose ones.

Nature and wildlife =26
Landscape =23
City =7
People =17
B&W =4 (ouch)
Macro =16
Sports =12
Wedding =14
Digital Art =1 (This must take the patience of Job)
Photo Critique =8
Post Processing =4

I am looking for a landscape forum for lower level photographers with activity at least equal to FM landscape. Anyone know a place like that? Camera Clubs typically have several rankings. In a national level I am probably 2 on a scale of 4.



Sep 05, 2014 at 11:32 AM
beanpkk
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Ideas for the forum


This thread is going down a hole, and fast. Let's try to lighten up a bit!

I have been part of FM for years, and this particular board has never been as high volume as some of the others. I don't see that as a problem. What I do see as a bit of a problem is the relative few people who contribute here. We could probably all list, say, a dozen names who frequently contribute both images and critiques. Most any image is virtually guaranteed to generate responses from half a dozen or so folks. That's OK, but I confess that I sometimes scan the names of OPs to see if there's someone new, and then I see if I can respond to that post. [I usually can't/don't for any of several reasons.] Anyway, I think we'd benefit from a little larger contributing group, but I don't know how to get there. One way that occurs to me is to participate in the other boards, and when we see an image that could use the input from some of the folks here we suggest to the OP that they cross-post here. That might generate a little more traffic.

In the people board, which I look at a lot, most people ask for C&C; in fact I'd say nearly everybody. And they generally get it, sometimes in great detail. I have never thought of "people" or "landscapes" or any of the other boards here as strictly "look at this great image" ~presentation~ boards. People post there, and I have posted there, with the intent of getting C&C at least as often as I've posted in "Photo Critique".

So C&C isn't limited to the "Photo Critique" board, which leaves me wondering what niche the Photo Critique board actually fills. I think it ~is~ different but I'd be hard pressed to describe the differences.

I will say that all of the boards are useful, sometimes entertaining, sometimes instructive. And that's life. And people. And photography too!

So to those of you who post a lot here, keep on doing so. For those of you who seldom post here, consider posting here, or cross-posting from another board. This board may be less frequently posted to but it certainly is NOT dead. Not by a long shot.

Just my opinion,
keith



Sep 05, 2014 at 07:27 PM
AuntiPode
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Ideas for the forum


beanpkk wrote:
Anyway, I think we'd benefit from a little larger contributing group, but I don't know how to get there. One way that occurs to me is to participate in the other boards, and when we see an image that could use the input from some of the folks here we suggest to the OP that they cross-post here. That might generate a little more traffic.


FWIW, might help if folks knew creating critiques for other's images was one of the best ways to improve your own. Not sure whether others believe it, but in my experience it is. I'd say the regulars here have all improved there photography, not just from receiving critiques, but from giving them.




Sep 05, 2014 at 07:37 PM





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