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Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?
  
 
rerdreb
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


I was hired to do a T&I shoot.

They wanted me to do the majority of the kids but said that they were letting another photographer do the cheerleaders and I said I was fine with that.

The other photographer had a child playing on one of the teams (not a cheerleader).

When I took that team's photos there were 3 kids that did not want/pay for pictures. I didn't think anything of it because not everyone always gets pictures. (one was the other photographer's child)

When I do T&I shoots I take an image of every player even if they did not order because I don't go back after picture day(s). I have had a lot of people say they forgot about picture day and order after the session so it helps to save time.

However, when the 3 kids that did not order pictures came up to get their image taken, the other photographer moved in behind me and took images of them. I heard her say to one of the kids (wait don't move your mom wants me to get your picture). She also took a picture of the team set up.

Now I really am not angry about losing 3 orders. I just don't feel that this was very professional of the other photographer. If you want to take 3 kids pictures then take them to another area and do your own set up. Get the team together and pose them yourself.

I vented to my wife on the car ride home but didn't say or do anything at the time. I had never had this happen to me before. Not sure how I should have handled this as I didn't want to create an issue because this was my first time shooting this organization and want to go back and do it again. But if I do go back I don't want this to happen again.

What would you recommend I do in this situation?

Ron



Aug 30, 2014 at 02:12 PM
JimBowman
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I think you made the right choice in just letting it go by because it may have put off the other parents and potentially lost more orders. In the future I would just ensure that the AD or whomever setup the shoot for you is aware that you are setting up the shoot and parents or additional photographers are not permitted to take photos while you are shooting. You are the one arranging the photo and you were the one who was hired to take these photographs.

It's a great learning experience for you and myself (and likely everyone reading this..) since I had never had this happen to me before but these days everyone thinks they are a pro with their iPad or iPhone standing behind you...

Thanks for sharing your experience!



Aug 30, 2014 at 02:42 PM
gschlact
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


Rerdreb,
Some ideas for consideration, some easier than others.
1. Make the contract inclusive of all teams including the Cheer.
2. In my area, photos actually either rope off or take the kid/team to another area much less reachable by parents.
3. If you had your own background for the T&I, then the other Photog, has copyright violation in reproducing your background. Being that she is a pro (took the cheer T&I , with statement of copyright violation for use of your background (it was your specific setup/creases,folds,positioning,etc), Send her an Invoice of the three lost orders, with hint that intentional copyright violation tends to have higher costs in court). Should she make a stink to the other parents, you simply say that you are not invoicing her for the images, you are invoicing for use of your copyright.



Aug 30, 2014 at 02:59 PM
rerdreb
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


I didn't push for the cheer team as this was the first time I have had a chance to work with this organization. I didn't use a background because the images were taken outdoors. Just my poses etc..

I don't want to make waves because I don't think that is a good way to keep a customer.

I'm not upset about the financial part at all if she needs those three sales more power to her. I just found it extremely rude to do that to another photographer. I would never think of doing that to someone. In fact when my kids are photographed by other photographers for sports, school, dances etc... I always buy a package I don't shoot over their shoulder.

I may invest in something that will allow me to rope off an area though to keep parents and other players back away from the shoot. I can always say that is to protect my equipment but that doesn't stop a zoom lens.

I'll have to review my procedures to see if I can make it more difficult in the future but hey necessity is the mother of invention.

Thanks,
Ron




Aug 30, 2014 at 09:53 PM
glort
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?



I have not had this with another photographer but plenty of times with parents.

You probably did the right thing but I probably wouldn't have. If there is one thing I can't stand it's people taking pics over my shoulders for the sole purpose of getting out of buying mine but wanting them to be as goos and using my setups or backdrops.
For what ever hangup I have, I take it as a great personal insult and I WOULD have said something, probably a lot about it.
Yeah, it could have cost me the job next year and I'm pig headed enough not to be worried about that. I'm also not that hard up for a dollar that I would trade my principles for $$ but that's not to say that's the smartest approach.

I shoot T&I in a pop up gazebo. That greatly narrows the angles anyone behind me can get and with a few well placed light stands doing nothing in particular and even a reflector reflecting in entirely the wrong direction, the opportunity for anone else to get a remotely decent shot is Minimal to say the least.
Having areas roped off can be surprisingly effective. Can't say I remember anyone ever " crossing the line" in that regard.

Having lightstands, tripods, chairs and assistants all blocking any other view but your own can be very effective in thwarting the people that want the look but not the cost of what you are doing. Reflectors and jackets on stands also help ruin anyone elses shot but your own quite nicely. My outdoor T&I is well protected with the gazebos I use as light tents to eliminate shadows but if you wanted to block more angles then something as simple as broom handles or PVC pipe in the holes of a couple of bricks would do the trick and you could hang a row or 2 of Bunting off it for real good measure. You could set it up so it was a guide of where you wanted the kids to enter and exit from as well and dont forget just lining them up in strategic places can also be effective in thwarting the sharp shooters.

When I am shooting indoors I always have my strobes turned up to f11+. This way if anyone is over the shoulder shooting and tripping my lights, the resultant images are going to look more like polar bears in a snow storm than anything else.

One market I have done where the over the shoulder shooters are completely over the top is school formals and graduations. The parents and other kids at these things pretty much can't be controlled with anything less than an electric cattle prod.
That's OK too.

I set my strobes off by radio slave but also have another 2 pointing back at where the crowd stand ( positioning yourself close to a wall is handy to minimise the areas you have to " gaurd" ) so their flashes trip the slave eyes on the strobes pointing backwards but not the strobes I'm working off.
I have had loads of complaints about my lights ruining the parents pics but I graciously smile and tell them as soon as I have finished taking my pics, they can take their kids somewhere the lights wont interfere with their cameras like over in front of that glass wall on the other side of the foyer etc. Some will even indignantly complain that they want to shoot their kids on MY backdrop to which I smile and tell them that will be fine, I'll be finished with it in about 2 hours and they can come back then.

Some do and then complain when they see I have pulled it all down and I have even had a fair few ask/insist I set it up again.

Errr sorry, no way in freaking hell.



Aug 31, 2014 at 04:29 PM
jerry23
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


rerdreb wrote:
I didn't push for the cheer team as this was the first time I have had a chance to work with this organization. I didn't use a background because the images were taken outdoors. Just my poses etc..

I don't want to make waves because I don't think that is a good way to keep a customer.

I'm not upset about the financial part at all if she needs those three sales more power to her. I just found it extremely rude to do that to another photographer. I would never think of doing that to someone. In fact when my
...Show more

That was a wise decision to not let your emotions rule you that time. I can imagine how annoyed you are on that situation as I've also experienced that once in a school event. We can't really expect every photog to have the same values and principles in work.



Sep 01, 2014 at 06:40 PM
 

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kzoockof
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


Damn Glort, you are an A-hole! But it sure feels good sometimes


Sep 03, 2014 at 01:12 AM
JimBowman
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


mental note: never shoot near glort or suffer a minefield of booby traps setup to make my lens explode =)

Seriously that post really made my day. I doubt I would ever try any of that but I was visualizing most of it happening and laughing hysterically at the computer. I have experienced the zoo atmosphere of the formals and I will be avoiding that next year or hosting somewhere parents are getting in front of me so they can take a picture with their iPad...



Sep 03, 2014 at 04:01 AM
glort
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


JimBowman wrote:
mental note: never shoot near glort or suffer a minefield of booby traps setup to make my lens explode =)

Seriously that post really made my day. I doubt I would ever try any of that but I was visualizing most of it happening and laughing hysterically at the computer. I have experienced the zoo atmosphere of the formals and I will be avoiding that next year or hosting somewhere parents are getting in front of me so they can take a picture with their iPad...


Zoo atmosphere is a spot on description! The parents go into a Photo feeding frenzy!
And Ipad photographers..... I don't need a gun or a knife, my bare hands will just do fine to deal with these infuraiting pests! You can even tie one behind my back. The outcome will be the same and still not good for the padographer!

Sure I'm an arsehole but that's because these people make me like that. What burns me is these people wouldn't go to a mechanic and expect to use their garage and tools to work on their car so they didn't have to pay for the repairs. They wouldn't bring their own food to a reception venue to get out of the costs of hiring it.

The fact they think they should be able to use my equipment for their own photos and try to get them in a sneaky, underhanded manner not have to buy mine I find insulting and of a level of being cheapskates that sends me off the deep end in a split second.

But if you are having trouble with the over the shoulder shooters at your T&I gigs, you need to look uber professional and get those Light stands all around and just tie some bright orange Poly rope around them so the kids know where you want them to enter and exit the shooting area. At least thats the excuse you use when you get the compalints or requests to move them because they are in the way.

And the best defense is shoot fast. I made myself a posing platform and outlined my kids feet at a 45o angle in thick marker. Before I start a team, I show the kids that I want them to put their feet on the outlines, twist to face me, how to hold the ball/ bat and smile. I can pump 3-5 shots of each kid out all day long in 5 seconds flat which again upsets the snipers who are still fumbling around before they realise the kid is finished and another one has taken their place. When I hear the parents complainng I took the pics too fast , it's music to my ears.
Sometimes for the real nasty sounding ones, I'll turn around and with a big smile say " What? I got 5 shots, your child has a great smile and they are so easy to photograph. Why aren't all kids walk up and do it like that?" What can they say to a compliment of their child?

Being organised and able to pump the kids through before the snipers can get their shot is not only a good defence, but great for efficency and getting on side with the clubs officialdom for running to time and not keeping the players waitingor games held up.

I'll say for my self I am as nice a guy if you are on my good side as I am an arsehole if you get on my bad side.

I love maiking people laugh by doing things like screaming at the bridal party outside the church when I do weddings and making out I'm very serious with them to get back into formation for a picture. I'll get the whole crowd of guests in hushed silence looking wondering what the hell is going on. I'll ask the bridal party if they are ready now and say in a soft animated tone, good because you moved away before this nice young lady here with the grey hair and the walking frame got her instamatic out of her handbag and took her shot. Then I'll say something like, " have you found it now sweetheart or can I help you by holding that crank handle for a model T and your personal invitation to the 1908 Olympic games.....got it? That shovel and hurricane lantern in there did come in handy didn't they?"
I'll put my arm around granny, bring her to the front of the crowd and then snarl at the bridal party to smile or else.

When I check she got the pic in a kindly, sweet voice I'll tell someone nearby in a loud voice, " She had one picture left on that roll of film and shes just been dying to finish it up so she can see how the pictures of the brides mother getting her first barbie doll at Christmas in 1973 turned out and now the film is used up she can take them to the chemist and get them processed." I'll look at her and say "Now don't you listen to what any of these people with these new fangled phone cameras say darling, Black and white is every bit as good as Colour and it's coming back into fashion now anyway".

Everyone cracks up and the grandmother/aunt whoever usually gives me a friendly slap on the arm then I get a kiss on the cheek.
That's fun and makes the gigs worthwhile and enjoyable.

Having people shooting over your shoulders with a mean spirited attitude is not. If people ask me humbly if they can take a pic, 99% of the time where its practical I'll let them and even turn off the sabotage lights or set their camera up for them so the pictures don't turn out whiter than their loungeroom Ceiling.
The thing is, people hardly ever ask like this, they just treat you like the enemy and have an attitude of trying to win by screwing you over.

At these school formals. 99.9% of people are like ruthless vultures all trying to get a one up on you. they then go and boast to their friends about having got their own pic and not needing to buy the photographers now.
In my repeated experience in many markets, the people that ask you politely if they can take a pic and you help, not only buy your pics anyway, they are frequently your best customers!

When I did sports frequently I would be standing next to a father that easily had gear the equivelent of my own coaching him how to get the best pics of his kids as we were both shooting them together.
That guy literally bought $300+ worth of pictures more than he spent $200 at every single event.
Every time I have helped someone with their cameras when they have asked me about them they have always come and bought my pics.
The back door snake in the grass snipers however take pride in NOT buying your pics because they sneaked their own and feel very smart and pleased with themselves for doing so.

I remember one old guy coming up to me at a high school formal I was the official sucker....errr, shooter for and asking if he paid me for the value of the photos now, could he take some on his own camera because he wanted to be able to take them home with him so he could use them for a slide show and get a big print made for the grandsons 18th birthday party the next day. I said that was fine, would you like to do them yourself or would you like me to take them for you? He was Very happy for me to shoot them so I shot the kid well and truly, brought in the parents, 2 brothers and sister, the grandparents and then the whole family like a full on speed dating portrait session.

I handed the camera back to him and he was thanking me profusely and asked how much and did he pay me or my wife doing the crowd wrangling? I said Oh dear, I have some bad news, I don't have my credit card machine with me and I only take Mongolian tugrik as cash currency because I don't trust those dodgy dollars. I said Tell you what, you name your next born after me, especially if it's a girl, and we'll call it even, Hows that?
The old guy was stunned and when he figured out my satire, insisted on paying. I said forget it, go enjoy yourself with your hot young girlfriend there ( motioning to his elderly wife) before I leave you here to do all the pictures and I race her off myself.

After the formalities the kids mother came to me and asked if I was busy for a moment and could come out to the foyer . I said sure thinking she may want some more pics. The old fella was there and said he couldn't leave without thanking me again and then proceded to tell a whole load of lies about what a decent bloke I was for helping out an old codger that most people didn't have the time of day for and other complimentary untruths about my charachter.
I'll never forget that because it was so unexpected and it was such a small thing that I realised was such a big deal to him.

That's the ONLY time I ever had anyone consider my time, effort, investment and the fact thats how I earnt my living and offer me any compensation. There was no way I was going to take money off the old fella, his consideration and thoughtfullness was more than payment enough.
I can get money out of anyone, very few people pay me that sort of respect.

People who do will get a lot out of me, those that go the other way will see just how big a mongeral bastard I can be.






Sep 03, 2014 at 01:57 PM
Ralph Thompson
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


I shoot a ton of T&I. I've had photographers try to poach my shot. I straight up told them it's not ethical for them to poach my set-up. I told them if they didn't want to buy my photos, that's cool. But for them to poach my set-up not only for their kid but for others is not acceptable. I've told my clients no over the shoulder shooters. No DSLR's poaching the team shot. I really don't mind the phone shots (Yea I know the phones are getting better, but the mom's aren't getting any better at this kind of shot) as long as they don't interrupt the shoot. I do all pre-buys so a parent has already made their purchase when they come through. If no purchase was made my logger will tell me if they are poaching my set-up with no purchase. I rush the shot, before they get an opportunity to get a quality shot.... Again no DSLR's on the shoot.


Sep 03, 2014 at 06:04 PM
markedman
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


Sadly I think this is only the beginning. Now that everyone has some kind of camera. Even if it is just a cell phone.
Last year I experienced this for the first time. I set up the shot while the parents stand behind me and poach the shot. Net results - no sales.
It is almost impossible to stop . Unless you really want to make a scene.
Seems that most of the abuse comes from the posed shots. So there is still sales potential with the action or candid shots.
Sadly, I think it will only get worse. So be prepared!



Sep 04, 2014 at 12:33 AM
docsmiles17
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Anyone had this happen to them and how did you handle it?


rerdreb wrote:
I was hired to do a T&I shoot.

They wanted me to do the majority of the kids but said that they were letting another photographer do the cheerleaders and I said I was fine with that.

The other photographer had a child playing on one of the teams (not a cheerleader).

When I took that team's photos there were 3 kids that did not want/pay for pictures. I didn't think anything of it because not everyone always gets pictures. (one was the other photographer's child)

When I do T&I shoots I take an image of every player even if they did not
...Show more

I would of handled it the same you did. If you have the other photogs contact info, I would call them and have a discussion on ediquette and professionalism.



Sep 04, 2014 at 04:42 AM





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