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Archive 2014 · high iso vs under expose

  
 
ATurturro
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · high iso vs under expose


hi all,

ive been shooting a local music venue that has very poor lighting. i am not able to use any sort of flash, so i need to work with what i have. i usually shoot with a 5dmk2 (or 1dmk3) with a 24-70 2.8 or 300 2.8.

i always shoot in raw and on 2.8, but im not sure if it is better to underexpose (ISO 12800, ss 1/125) and raise exposure in post processing or to raise the iso all the way to 25600 (ss 1/125)?

all ideas and comments are greatly appreciated.

thanks,
ana



Aug 29, 2014 at 10:16 AM
Eyeball
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · high iso vs under expose


For the 5D2, and assuming you're shooting raw, anything above ISO 6400 (some say 3200) is a digital-only "push" (no additional amplification of the analog signal off the sensor) so you can shoot at those ISOs under-exposed and push in post with your raw developer and get about the same results as boosting the ISO beyond those levels. I think it comes down to what you find easiest while shooting and for your workflow.

If shooting Jpegs, then you should boost the ISO to whatever you need. You don't want to have to push an 8-bit Jpeg significantly in post if you can avoid it.



Aug 29, 2014 at 10:37 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · high iso vs under expose


Usually pushing in post with Canon sensors causes more noise than exposing properly to begin with. I have not heard about an iso benefit limit such as 6400, but you could experiment with that.

The Sony A7 can use your Canon lenses if your subject is generally still. The shadow details can be pushed quite hard with very nice results, allowing some degree of underexposure. May be worth a rental if noise an issue for you. They have come down quite a bit in price, used.

David



Aug 29, 2014 at 11:53 AM
Gochugogi
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · high iso vs under expose


I use a 6D to frequently shoot stage performances and find myself at ISO 6400 or 12800 much of the time. The camera's processing of high ISO is a level or two better than what I can do by pushing in RAW. The large areas of darkness outside the subject area often fool the meter into overexposing and it's not uncommon to need to dial down a stop or two so the highs aren't blown.


Aug 29, 2014 at 12:06 PM
wordfool
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · high iso vs under expose


Spot meter and use a higher ISO -- as others have said, pushing exposure in post does not always give a great result with Canon files, especially if there's a lot of dark/shadow.


Aug 29, 2014 at 12:36 PM
ATurturro
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · high iso vs under expose


thanks everyone for the great, helpful responses. i am shooting the same venue tonight. i will try out all of the suggestions posted, mostly by using high iso and trying to get a properly exposed image.


Sep 03, 2014 at 08:56 PM
kezeka
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · high iso vs under expose


I shot shows with a 5D2 for a good long while. Shoot at whatever ISO you need to in order to expose correctly, stop the motion, and then do whatever you can in post to make it look better. I found that most of my images at 12800 and 25600 needed to be converted to black and white because the colors sucked and the contrast wasn't there. I realize that it is all just pushed digitally but I found that exposing correctly even at the "digital" 12800+ looked better than doing it in post.

That said, the actual answer to your problem is that you should pick up some prime lenses and shoot with those to keep the ISO around 6400 if at all possible. That is how I solved my problem. Local shows in small venues can easily be covered with a 35mm and 85mm. Hell, I have even covered shows at the House of Blues with the 35+85 combo when I wanted more light and the 70-200 2.8 IS just couldn't stop the motion and expose correctly.


Here are some photos from a show this past winter when I had my 5D2 (and 1D3) at a venue that literally had no stage lighting. One of the bands pulled out a blue florescent tube and power source for it from their van and put it on the floor in front of the small stage and that was the only lighting. These are not shinning beacons of my photographic talent but sometimes scrapping by and just getting something is good enough (linked to because I don't have the rights to republish these photos):

http://ovrld.com/photo-reviews/ringo-deathstarr-boxing-lesson-purple-nation-states/



Sep 03, 2014 at 09:30 PM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · high iso vs under expose


^^^^

the OP says a 300/2.8 so going for a faster prime isnt an option although yes a prime or 2 in the 24-70 range (or maybe a little over with an 85/1.8) would be an option

converting very high ISO images to B&W is a very good choice . the noise never looks as bad (maybe we're used to those old grainy b&w images shot on film )

ultimately though a newer better hi iso body may be the best option . for canon that would be the 6D or 1Dx , but the other brands may hold a better option .




Sep 03, 2014 at 11:21 PM
mttran
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · high iso vs under expose


ATurturro wrote:
hi all,

ive been shooting a local music venue that has very poor lighting. i am not able to use any sort of flash, so i need to work with what i have. i usually shoot with a 5dmk2 (or 1dmk3) with a 24-70 2.8 or 300 2.8.

i always shoot in raw and on 2.8, but im not sure if it is better to underexpose (ISO 12800, ss 1/125) and raise exposure in post processing or to raise the iso all the way to 25600 (ss 1/125)?

all ideas and comments are greatly appreciated.

thanks,
ana


Get faster lenses for 5D2 and 1D3 such as 135L2.0, 50L1.2, 35L1.4, 85L1.2, etc...



Sep 03, 2014 at 11:34 PM
kezeka
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · high iso vs under expose


Ian.Dobinson wrote:
^^^^

the OP says a 300/2.8 so going for a faster prime isnt an option although yes a prime or 2 in the 24-70 range (or maybe a little over with an 85/1.8) would be an option

converting very high ISO images to B&W is a very good choice . the noise never looks as bad (maybe we're used to those old grainy b&w images shot on film )

ultimately though a newer better hi iso body may be the best option . for canon that would be the 6D or 1Dx , but the other brands may hold a
...Show more

Yah I noticed that he/she said 300/2.8. I am curious as to when you might need that? The only venues I have shot at where i wished I had a 300 had far superior lighting setups (giant outdoor festivals, huge indoor stages with professional lighting, etc.). OP - show me some photos of concerts you have taken with a 300! I have been trying to justify picking one up for the big festivals but haven't had the cajones to do so yet.



Sep 03, 2014 at 11:37 PM
Mike V
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · high iso vs under expose


For most cameras it is better to shoot at the native ISO and push in post.

Current Canons not so much, because the fixed pattern noise is so bad.



Sep 04, 2014 at 07:52 AM
Access
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · high iso vs under expose


ATurturro wrote:
i always shoot in raw and on 2.8, but im not sure if it is better to underexpose (ISO 12800, ss 1/125) and raise exposure in post processing or to raise the iso all the way to 25600 (ss 1/125)?

all ideas and comments are greatly appreciated.

Shoot at the ISO you need to get proper exposure. Even slightly overexpose (by around 0.5EV) and then pull back in post.

And look for decent noise reduction software. Some of it works very well, especially considering the level of pattern noise at the really high ISOs.

In the past I used noise ninja and topaz denoise. Recently I've used DxO Optics Pro (v8) which I've found to be very effective, if you can deal with the bad interface and slow app. Most will take some time and tweaking for the best results depending on the situation. What I like about DxO Optics Pro is it can save as a DNG which lightroom can then use like any other raw set. Most of these products are under $100, though some like DxO Optics Pro I think is $200.

Lightroom and the rest of the adobe products have some noise reduction built in, but I found it wasn't that effective and you just end up with lower noise but less detail.




Sep 05, 2014 at 12:59 AM
Mar73
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · high iso vs under expose


The search option in FM is awesome. I've used it many times. I am shooting a ballet tomorrow and had the very same question. I will be shooting with a 50d and 70-200 f2.8 but wanted to stop down a little during one part in the show. My daughter will be doing a leap center stage that I do not want out of focus so I was thinking of stopping down to 5.6 or even 8 to be sure I caught it. There will be many dancers on stage for autofocus to lock on instead of my daughter. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Marty



Apr 24, 2015 at 09:18 PM
Phazed
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · high iso vs under expose


Spot focus centered on your daughter. As far as stopping down be careful and watch your shutter speed as if too slow for her jump will cause blurring.


Apr 24, 2015 at 09:44 PM
Mar73
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · high iso vs under expose



Phazed wrote:
Spot focus centered on your daughter. As far as stopping down be careful and watch your shutter speed as if too slow for her jump will cause blurring.


Thanks for the tip. I usually shoot at 1/125 with good results. She will be running from one end of the stage to the other with a leap at center stage. Will 1/125 be fast enough to stop the action at a running speed?

I was thinking of stopping down and under exposing but judging by the response above in need to just expose properly to start with.



Apr 24, 2015 at 09:55 PM
dhphoto
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · high iso vs under expose


Ian.Dobinson wrote:
^^^^

the OP says a 300/2.8 so going for a faster prime isnt an option although yes a prime or 2 in the 24-70 range (or maybe a little over with an 85/1.8) would be an option

converting very high ISO images to B&W is a very good choice . the noise never looks as bad (maybe we're used to those old grainy b&w images shot on film )

ultimately though a newer better hi iso body may be the best option . for canon that would be the 6D or 1Dx , but the other brands may hold a
...Show more

I agree with Ian.

I spent my youth shooting rock concerts in film when the most I could get was 1250/1600 ASA (as it was then) with uprated Ectachrome, 6400 would have been a dream.

The 300mm is a fantastic lens but quite unsuitable for this as you need such a high shutter speed just to use it, an 85 1.8mm (which is what I used to use from the orchestra pit, FD version) or a 100 f2 or similar would be a better idea and wouldn't break the bank.

The 6D is a better high ISO camera but the 5D2 still isn't bad with the modern RAW processors and some careful noise removal.



Apr 25, 2015 at 01:01 AM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · high iso vs under expose


Mar73 wrote:
Thanks for the tip. I usually shoot at 1/125 with good results. She will be running from one end of the stage to the other with a leap at center stage. Will 1/125 be fast enough to stop the action at a running speed?

I was thinking of stopping down and under exposing but judging by the response above in need to just expose properly to start with.


never shot something like that but the general rule is if it moves then go as fast as you can . you never look at images of humans (or animals) mid jump and well frozen and say "gee I wish that was shot at a slower shutter speed" . but Ive got many (too many) slightly blurry shots of my kids just running around where its just a little blurry because the shutter speed was too low .

There are a couple of dance shooters on here that may be worth asking advice . also have a look at images posted on here and on places like flickr . I would be a person mid jump and well frozen will be shot at speeds quite a bit faster then 1/125th (assuming no flash was used) .

for shots like that I would worry much less about the noise in the image you get from upping the ISO to get a usable shutter speed than getting a nice low noise shot thats blurry .

as Its your daughter maybe you could get a bit of practice in even if its just her running at the approximate speed and distance .

EDIT:
one last thing you say you want to use upto f8 to get a sharp shot , but check with a DOF chart to see what the stop you will need at the distance your going to shooting at . f4 may be plenty if you do have to stop down



Apr 25, 2015 at 02:15 AM
Mar73
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · high iso vs under expose


Thanks so much for the feedback! I really don't like the noise in my 50d shots at high iso but I really hate blurry shots. I've been searching ballet shots on FM and found a few. I will have a chance to shoot other dancers before she comes out and get shutter speed as high as possible for the lighting.


Apr 25, 2015 at 08:07 AM
markshelby
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · high iso vs under expose


ATurturro wrote:
hi all,

ive been shooting a local music venue that has very poor lighting. i am not able to use any sort of flash, so i need to work with what i have. i usually shoot with a 5dmk2 (or 1dmk3) with a 24-70 2.8 or 300 2.8.

i always shoot in raw and on 2.8, but im not sure if it is better to underexpose (ISO 12800, ss 1/125) and raise exposure in post processing or to raise the iso all the way to 25600 (ss 1/125)?

all ideas and comments are greatly appreciated.

thanks,
ana


I shoot local clubs a lot, and for me the best solution is:
- Expose normally
- leave the shadows dark when editing
- Use fast apertures

If you want to try out some faster glass, think about a 50mm 1.4 or an 85mm 1.4 to start (I'm assuming you have at least some access to near the front of the venue)--those are focal lengths where you can get a good lens for $400.

Hope this helps.

www.markshelbyperry.smugmug.com



Apr 27, 2015 at 10:38 AM
NCAndy
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · high iso vs under expose


The best thing you can do to help when shooting very high ISOs is to fill the frame with your subject. Cropping will just magnify the noise and the loss of color separation and contrast will be obvious.


Apr 27, 2015 at 11:09 AM
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