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Archive 2014 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

NYstyles
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

Im with Tony, I dont care how one does it as long as they deliver and the client is happy. In the end that is all that matters... not how you did it, how many, nor what another photographer does. We dont do what we do for photographers its for clients/us. I find many photographers are all up in others business and what they do when they should mind their own... but thats a whole other issue! ha ha

Not my personal style to 'overshoot'. Im a less is more type. Ive honed my skills over the years more so I shoot less but it comes down to the day, the couple, the event, etc on how much I shoot. Sometimes its more and sometimes its less... I always look to improve my skills as well, you never stop learning, Im only in my 5th year of event shooting.

I do cull hard though. I think 1000+ photos is just overwhelming for couples and families to look through.(at least my client base) As a bride, Id be like OMG I have to look through all those?

The bottom line is we do what works for us and making our clients happy because that Is the bottom line.

Aug 29, 2014 at 07:09 AM

Littleguy
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

From a single client perspective - sure - it doesn't matter how we got it as long as the client is happy with the shots that we deliver.

As an industry - it is bad. Especially bad for the PJ nature light shooter.

If you tell the client that they are only going to get 5-10% of the shots they was shot because 90-95% of the rest are non-keepers or repeats - it pushes the idea of the Infinite Monkey Theorem.

You can see that logic in play with crowd sourcing of wedding photos.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/28/tech/mobile/wedding-photo-crowdsourcing/

I was a guest at a wedding where they display photos with the wedding's hashtag - live on screen - most were just selfies but about 5% of them were great captured of great moments - yes they were grainy and had bad colour but turn them into B&W with some PS action and you have yourself some keepers.

How are you going to compete against a room of 250-300 other photographers who most likely knows the B&G and each other better than the official photographer. They can get close, they can be in different places at the same time.

The only advantage you have is access during parts of the day where the guests are not present and your better equipment.

I think this is the reason so many of us are using external lights and moving back to posed editorial style shoots in addition to PJ natural light shooting - it gives us something that no one else can capture. You cannot crowd source that.

Aug 29, 2014 at 11:03 AM

robots4joey
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

I'm with the less-is-easier-to-deal-with crowd (if there is a crowd). I tend to shoot one to two shots of a moment and that's it. With the 5d2 I used to take several shots making sure to refocus & recompose- but that was because it missed focus sometimes. With the 5d3, I rarely have a misfocus, so one or two shots does it! I can't imagine the scene changing so much that you need 10 shots at a time.

I tend to spend a lot of time looking thru the viewfinder and waiting after I take a shot or two. if something changes, I'm ready for it.

Aug 29, 2014 at 11:29 AM

dhp_sf
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

Littleguy wrote:
If you tell the client that they are only going to get 5-10% of the shots they was shot because 90-95% of the rest are non-keepers or repeats - it pushes the idea of the Infinite Monkey Theorem.

You can see that logic in play with crowd sourcing of wedding photos.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/28/tech/mobile/wedding-photo-crowdsourcing/

I was a guest at a wedding where they display photos with the wedding's hashtag - live on screen - most were just selfies but about 5% of them were great captured of great moments - yes they were grainy and had bad colour but turn them into B&W with...Show more →

I've told clients this. They still want to pay me to shoot their wedding. They really don't care about the process, they just want good photographs. I also explain to them why I approach things the way I do. If anything it gives them more confidence that I'll get the job done

How are you going to compete against a room of 250-300 other photographers who most likely knows the B&G and each other better than the official photographer. They can get close, they can be in different places at the same time.

By doing the job I was hired to do all day. No, I'm not going to get every single random moment that happens, but I'll get the big stuff, some things they weren't expecting. Not to mention the "250-300 other photographers" are probably not as cognizant of light and composition...

The only advantage you have is access during parts of the day where the guests are not present and your better equipment.

That and my experiences/skills as a professional photographer....

I think this is the reason so many of us are using external lights and moving back to posed editorial style shoots in addition to PJ natural light shooting - it gives us something that no one else can capture. You cannot crowd source that.

I use off camera light, but I don't really see how this is relevant to the topic at hand. Shooting a lot and using flash aren't mutually exclusive.

Aug 29, 2014 at 11:45 AM

Ziffl3
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

dhp_sf wrote:
implications != truth

Also "moments" are not necessarily a split second. A moment can happen over the course of 5 or 10 seconds, it's about getting the moment at the peak. If you can predict when the peak of any given moment has happened or will happen, then you must have a sixth sense. If you only take a couple of frames when you THINK the a moment has reached its maximum potential, but it continues on and you stop shooting, you may have missed the peak. Maybe others are okay with just "capturing the moment" but I want to capture...Show more →

Lets not get this twisted around ... I don't stop shooting when following a moment. nope.
I just don't roll the shutter on like an uzi.

Actually most moments have some duration in time. ... the longer ones ... means the heavy fingered shooter will roll for 5-10 seconds with the shutter wide open. Thats a bunch of images.

Not my style of shooting.
Now if there is a good pace to the action of the moment ... I will let the shutter go.

I see nothing wrong with watching people, learning to understand personal interactions, experience in shooting weddings to help create a sense of timing.

Aug 29, 2014 at 02:40 PM

dhp_sf
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

We are not that different after all, you and I.

Ziffl3 wrote:
Lets not get this twisted around ... I don't stop shooting when following a moment. nope.
I just don't roll the shutter on like an uzi.

Aug 29, 2014 at 03:03 PM

MRomine
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

TTLKurtis wrote:
I came to say basically this. People know when they are being photographed and I don't want them to feel like I'm taking a million photographs. I want them to feel like I was hardly there and still got amazing stuff. I don't want them to be annoyed at the ever-present sound of my shutter firing.

The new wave of mirrorless cameras will make it better for the client and allow us to get more intimate images. Most of these cameras are near silent and the new GH4 is silent, no noise at all.

Aug 29, 2014 at 04:03 PM

D. Diggler
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

BSPhotog wrote:
You guys are listing the number of images shot per wedding, but how many images are you delivering of those?

When I first started with digital, I was delivering maybe 60% of the images that were taken. And I must say that I did feel at the time somewhat embarrassed that my percentage of deliverable shots was so low! You hear some guys back in the film days were delivering 90%+ of the shots they took.

Lately I'm trying to be more selective in what shots I deliver so I'm maybe delivering around 40% of all shots taken.

Aug 30, 2014 at 02:44 AM

D. Diggler
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

TTLKurtis wrote:
I don't want them to feel like I'm taking a million photographs ... I don't want them to be annoyed at the ever-present sound of my shutter firing.

I would agree with this.

And, too, I don't want my subjects to feel self-conscious as what happens when people are aware (from the sound of the shutter) that they're being photographed.

I notice that the above considerations are never addressed by people who advocate taking 4000+ shots per wedding.

Aug 30, 2014 at 02:58 AM

glort
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

D. Diggler wrote:
You hear some guys back in the film days were delivering 90%+ of the shots they took.

Exactly.
Everyone did it.
There was no way in hell you could do like so many do now and deliver 10-20% of what you took because you'd go broke. This mentality of capture every single moment now is bunkum and a crutch for shooters that are insecure in their abilities to get worthwhile pictures.

I still deliver well over 90% of what I take because the only thing I have to delete is the bloopers such as blinks, open mouths, and the couple I always seem to get of my feet. The rest are pictures I planed and timed to be worthwhile. Sure there are 10 shots of the entire bridal party to ensure there is a shot of everyone looking etc but you don't have to do 10 pics of every setup or thing you take.

I'd go nuts having to wade though thousands of shots which were predominantly the same picking out the one or 2 from 10 or 20 to give the client and deleting the mountains of also ran rubbish. A competent shooter knows in the greatest majority of cases when you have the shot, when you do, stop and shoot something else. No one in the days of film took 10 shots of everything to make sure they were OK and there certainly wasn't any chimping.
People delivered albums then just as good as what they do now so why the difference in numbers of pics taken?
Shooter competence perhaps?

Couples dont want to choose from thousands of shots. When I do 500 I think I have over shot and the reaction from the clients is that going through them all will be a chore.

It's all well and good for everyone to do their own thing but when people are talking 4-10 K shots for a wedding, they are making the whole industry look amateruish and silly.

Aug 30, 2014 at 03:07 AM

dhp_sf
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

D. Diggler wrote:
I would agree with this.

And, too, I don't want my subjects to feel self-conscious as what happens when people are aware (from the sound of the shutter) that they're being photographed.

I notice that the above considerations are never addressed by people who advocate taking 4000+ shots per wedding.

Let me help you out.

widjayaman wrote:
I wish that some of these people who are so negative about things would show their work so I can have a frame of reference on whether I can take them seriously or not.

On the other hand I think Todd have a valid point about whether shooting too many photos would really have a noticeable effect on the subjects being photographed. Something to think about, definitely. I also think this (how you shoot, how close you get, etc) is something that should definitely be discussed in advance.

dhp_sf wrote:
Yeah this is one of the only reasons against shooting high volume that I can understand. I'm actually going to try shooting silent mode on my 5D3s this weekend for the entire time. I think it would also help with people who have a reflex to stare at the camera when they hear it click. I usually turn on silent mode for the ceremony/speeches but might be nice the rest of the day to to remain as unobtrusive as possible.

Aug 30, 2014 at 03:09 AM

D. Diggler
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

dhp_sf wrote:
Let me help you out.

Yeah, I read all that earlier. I meant other than our discussion in this thread. And I was saying that the guys advocating the 5000-shot weddings are not the ones bringing up the irritation issue. I think Todd was the first one to bring it up here and he's not advocating Spray And Pray.

Aug 30, 2014 at 06:23 AM

Syracuse
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

NYstyles wrote:
Im with Tony, I dont care how one does it as long as they deliver and the client is happy. In the end that is all that matters... not how you did it, how many, nor what another photographer does. We dont do what we do for photographers its for clients/us. I find many photographers are all up in others business and what they do when they should mind their own... but thats a whole other issue! ha ha

Not my personal style to 'overshoot'. Im a less is more type. Ive honed my skills over the years more so I...Show more →

I have never yet had a complaint about getting too many photos. But I have heard many times of upset brides feeling they were not given enough images. I think there are a few threads about this right here on FM.

Ultimately for us the amount of images delivered depends completely on the emotion and expressiveness of the couple themselves and the level of involvement from the guests and families.

Aug 30, 2014 at 07:41 AM

Inku Yo
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

I'm just not good enough to get "the moment" in a single click. Not only that, who's to say that you got the best part of the moment? Sometimes, it's the moment after "the moment" that was the better moment. Make sense?

Aug 30, 2014 at 09:29 AM

Ziffl3
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

MRomine wrote:
The new wave of mirrorless cameras will make it better for the client and allow us to get more intimate images. Most of these cameras are near silent and the new GH4 is silent, no noise at all.

So this is leaning on equipment instead of working on people skills.

Your camera goes down ... then what.... no 'intimate' images.

IMHO, I can see mirrorless as a positive ... but lets not have it remove a needed skill in wedding photography.

Aug 30, 2014 at 10:55 AM

dhp_sf
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

Tyler Wirken talks about it in the creative live piece. Also mentioning the silent shutter.

D. Diggler wrote:
Yeah, I read all that earlier. I meant other than our discussion in this thread. And I was saying that the guys advocating the 5000-shot weddings are not the ones bringing up the irritation issue. I think Todd was the first one to bring it up here and he's not advocating Spray And Pray.

Aug 30, 2014 at 11:32 AM

Mark_L
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

There is a big difference between spray and pray and shooting a shit tons of frames of something with specific intent. I often shot 100 frames per look in fashion for just one frame where it all comes togther. Maybe a better photog could do it in 10 but the end result would be the same.

Aug 30, 2014 at 05:25 PM

glort
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

Mark_L wrote:
There is a big difference between spray and pray and shooting a shit tons of frames of something with specific intent. I often shot 100 frames per look in fashion for just one frame where it all comes togther. Maybe a better photog could do it in 10 but the end result would be the same.

In shooting fashion, I don't think 100 frames per look is excessive. You are basicaly manufacturing the shot rather than capturing something that is already happening.

As far as the end result goes, that's kinda what gets me.
Why shoot thousands of frames when you can shoot so much less and still deliver the same end result?

What I want to know with all these multi thousand frame advocates is what their delivery time back to the client is and how many shots they are giving them.
Even if you spend 1 minute average per shot culling/ photofiddling 2500 shots which seems to be a somewhat conservative number) , That's over 41 hours of work in post.

If a person takes 5 Minutes to edit even 1000 frames, that's 83 Hours!

I'd like to know how long the multi thousand frame shooters keep thier clients waiting to see these perfect moment shots.

Aug 30, 2014 at 08:44 PM

Lanny Mann
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

D. Diggler wrote:
I would agree with this.

And, too, I don't want my subjects to feel self-conscious as what happens when people are aware (from the sound of the shutter) that they're being photographed.

I notice that the above considerations are never addressed by people who advocate taking 4000+ shots per wedding.

---------------------------------------------

Erika and I shoot A LOT, which is not to say we "overshoot" or "spray and pray." We average 8-12 thousand frames per wedding between our 4 cameras (and even more when the dance floor gets really crazy way late into the night). The vast majority of those frames are deliberately made with an intent to improve upon the previous frame(s). We're shooting right through the moment(s), constantly micro-adjusting for cleaner backgrounds & edges. My camera is almost always up and I'm always asking myself, "How can I make this better?" Better light? Better composition? Better moment? Can I tell more than one story within a single frame? Can I light this differently? And that goes for PJ and portraits and everything in-between. And we try a lot of things that'll probably really suck, and they usually do.

But one of the best arguments for shooting lots, is actually with respect to the "intrusiveness considerations" mentioned above. Capturing real, authenic moments and emotion (up close versus from far back with a telephoto lens), is all about gaining trust and access. As Tyler Wirken and many of my mentors have taught me, the best way to become invisible is to always be there. I believe that my subjects actually become much less aware of me and my camera and my shutter BECAUSE I am always there (versus just coming in and shooting every time something exciting/intimate/emotional starts to happen... which can be much more obvious/intrusive). I want my subjects to become so used to me doing my crazy things, that they eventually just forget about me and don't notice me anymore. This helps me gain the trust & access I need to be able to get in there close when it counts and fire off several frames in the heat of an emotional moment. I really feel that the more shy we are with this as photographers, the more awkward/noticeable we become.

Making photos is what I'm paid to do, so I'm ok with doing so.

Aug 31, 2014 at 02:09 AM

cas5
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?

Just last week one of my partners hired an experienced wedding photographer to cover a company event. I knew the photographer well and he's second shot for me a number of times. He turned in about 100 raw frames per working hour. While the company was thrilled with what they got I know he wasn't working hard. He'd frequently have the camera down by his side and he'd sniper shoot a frame or two. When he caught a moment it was because of luck rather than intention. When you look at his raw images he would have one or two frames of something and move on. The frames were never refined, his backgrounds weren't clean and they rarely had peak moments because he missed the moment while bringing the camera to his face. The client was happy, there were usable frames and they were better than the standard run of the mill photographers that they might have called in to cover the event but they weren't the best representation of the event that the client could have had. They were good enough.

I began to understand the difference between what I was doing and the foundation style of shooting in a project that I ran for a local hospital. I had 21 other wedding photographers working for me and got to see all their unedited images -- about 1/3 of the photographers were related to foundation in one way or another. In one instance I shot side by side with a foundation wedding photographer that used to shoot for the chicago tribune. We shot the same subject: morning rounds in the halls of the hospital. Boring shit and he out shot me in every respect. My images showed a work environment and people talking. His images showed a dynamic work environment with happy people. Aside from his frames being better composed he worked hard to capture images where the subjects were smiling. There was never just one shot of any scene he worked it until the moment had passed. He caught peak moments and moments just after peak moments that simply made for better photos than mine. I turned in around 400 images in two hours and he was almost triple that number. Comparing his images side by side to mine, it became clear that he simply worked the moments harder than I did.

The photo editing was done by Michael Davis formerly photo editor for National Geographic and the presidential archive. On average, Foundation related photographers had more images that were selected to appear in the book. It's interesting to note that of the 14,000 images that were shot, not a single PJ image was strong enough to make the cover. I had to bring in a commercial photographer to get that image.

At an average wedding I had been shooting 1500-2000 frames and at my last wedding I consciously doubled that count. The only reason the count doubled was that I worked harder during the day constantly saying to myself how do I make this image better? Can I clean up my background? Is there more of a story to tell? How would wirken/murray/sergio/huy be shooting this? have I explored every angle? Is the framing right? am I cutting off limbs? where's my next shot? The higher frame count was a direct result of my attitude during the day.

Aug 31, 2014 at 04:49 AM

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