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Archive 2014 · Legality question

speakit101
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Legality question

Got a call today from a local High School football coach and he had got a call from the principal stating that a parent was complaining about her son's pic was on social media. Now I have permission to take pics of the team from the school. And I'm not the only one taking pics on the sideline so it may not have been one of my pics that were in question. So in a situation like this who's right and who's wrong. Do I need to have the players sign disclosure statements or what. Please advise that way I'm covered and the school is protected. I also post the pics on my SmugMug site so what can that parent do about that? Thanks in advance for your advice.

Aug 22, 2014 at 08:21 PM

kdlanejr
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Legality question

There is more going on here than "legality" of posting to social media. 1) Here in Texas each school has a list of students that parents have opted out of photography for. This list is for regular day to day classes and not normally for sports viewed by the public. There are various reasons for opting out, but once they have opted out, any photography during normal school hours must exempt them. If you're hired to take photos during school hours on campus (reasonable expectation of privacy) they will provide a list of students that are not to be photographed.
2) Football is played for the public and it is unreasonable to be expected to not photograph a player during a game.

You do not need to have each player sign any kind of disclosure. The parent should already have done that in order to allow them to play the sport.

The question here isn't whether you're right or wrong or need more paperwork, it's simply a matter of courtesy to let the coach tell you which player it is and remove any photos you may have posted and refrain from posting any images of same in the future. It's not that hard.

I'm surprised that the principal said anything to the coach or that the coach said anything to you. Both should be 100% aware of the paperwork the parents have to sign to allow their child to play sports in the first place. That said, it's always possible that their paperwork is inadequate.

The parent really shouldn't have a leg to stand on as there should not be a reasonable expectation of privacy at a football game that sells tickets to the general public.

A meeting with the principal may be in order to answer your questions fully for your state.

Aug 22, 2014 at 09:02 PM

P Alesse
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Legality question

Parent complains yet student will right click your image watermark and all and make it his profile pic on FB.

Aug 22, 2014 at 09:07 PM

speakit101
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Legality question

Kdlanejr thanks for that. I agree with you also seems how I only posted pics of kids that I know them and there parents so I don't think its any of the ones I posted. And P Alesse you are 100% happens all the time. Thanks for that input.

Aug 22, 2014 at 09:23 PM

gschlact
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Legality question

I agree, you are fully legal, public activity, photos posted not for commercial use (promoting a business or endorsing product) etc. photos for sale are not considered commercial use, even when the public purchases. But as others indicated, neighborly is entire different discussion. I don't believe student Exemption from Photography would hold up for the public games.

Hypothetically, I wonder what others would do... Say you have a shoe-in D1 likely to go Pro player on the HS team whose parents want to control his image. Everyone lines up to buy the poster you made, do you continue to sell them (allure of future collectibility), Athletic Director says you are within legal rights, just the kid's parents making a fuss. My vote, keep selling and posting. Parent can't have their cake and eat it too, privacy vs public playing field.

-guy

Aug 26, 2014 at 10:40 PM

Game Changer
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Legality question

IMHO it's a slippery-slope when dealing with minors.
I have experienced this scenario on several occasions, even AFTER the parent(s) have signed the standard release when the minor enters the sporting event/league.

Here's what I always do....I DELETE the images and move on.

I don't have the time or patience to deal with parents, etc. Even though I am 150% in the right, I will always end up the Bad Guy with the parents/school/league.

Aug 27, 2014 at 07:27 AM

JimBowman
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Legality question

This raises an interesting question as I head into year #2 shooting for the HS football team. I am friends with most of the players and parents having been a coach at the youth level for several years. Now this gets me a certain comfort level with the families and players that works to my advantage - it also creates an atmosphere and expectation that I will provide these photos on FB.

Last year I did this and the majority of the players went into the ritualistic frenzy Saturday changing their profile pictures and sharing the photos with everyone (including screen capping them into Instagram). My watermark in the past has been in the lower area of the picture and not splattered across the center of the image.

This year I am considering only posting a few select shots on FB and providing the link to the photo gallery on Smugmug if people are interested in my photos. I am also considering putting my watermark in the middle of the picture going forward. I am just looking for some advice from anyone who has experience or some wisdom to impart to me going forward.

-note: I have yet to experience what the OP is discussing but it definitely opened my eyes and prepared me for how to deal with this so thank you for opening the discussion!

Aug 27, 2014 at 08:12 AM

JohnBrose
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Legality question

If the parent doesn't want their child seen, they need to keep them out of the public. Anyone can take a picture of the child when they are out in public. People get way too protective of an image. It's just an image of a person playing a sport. I haven't had anyone object to images I post, but would probably remove it and then not take any more image of the kid in question, then when the parent complains they don't have any pics of their kid you can tell them why.

Aug 27, 2014 at 08:33 AM

gschlact
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Legality question

Jim,
a couple of years ago, I did just that. Moved watermark to the middle of image and pointed everyone to Smugmug for viewing or purchases. Nothing can be done about screen-grab, but at least it will include your watermark / copyright. I have no intent on trying to keep up with the player's screen-shot posting onto social networks, barring any commercial gain attempts by anyone that include my image.

I wouldn't even post a "few" select shots on FB, instead, you can "Share" to facebook from Smugmug where a link is then posted on the FB accout with a thumbnail of your image and link back to the Gallery.

Guy

Aug 27, 2014 at 12:58 PM

JimBowman
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Legality question

Guy:

I just checked out the share option from Smugmug and you freakin rock! I totally overlooked this and this is exactly what I am going to do. Thank you so much for point this out. I know it's a little detail but this was exactly what I was looking for and you nailed it =)

--Jim

Aug 27, 2014 at 02:36 PM

gschlact
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Legality question

Jim - (OT sorry to the rest of the thread)
One thing to be careful about on SMugmug. You actually have 2 'groups' of settings that work in conjunction with each other. Gallery Settings "Security" and "Social." The first one has been recently tweaked by SM.
1. Security -> External Embedding on/off - this does two things when On, first, under the Share arrow under the photo, it turns on the "Get a Link" so that you can embed the images using a URL. Second, it enables those links to resolve the images on external sites.
2. Social -> Show Sharing Options - this lets the Sharing menu (arrow) be shown and populated with Facebook etc.

This creates a dilemma for posting here. I used to put Embed On and grab the links to the photos I wanted to post here, then simply turn off Embed so others on FB couldn't get the link easily. Once I had a link, it seemed to persist even though I had turned Embed to Off. NOW, it appears to be gated by the Embed setting. This needs to be tested again as it was only last month that I discovered this change. Otherwise, in order to support posts here, I leave Embed On, and Share off which removes FB ;-( If you play with it, please let me know. I hope I am wrong and that the links persist and go back to normal.

-Guy

**************** EDIT ********************
update from Smugmug, with the Embed=On option. There is some CSS HTML code that we can insert in the owner Customize CSS block, that will turn off the Share >> Get a Link for all Guest (non Owner of site). PM me for it, or google for it on DGrin (I don't have it with me at the moment).

Edited on Oct 04, 2014 at 09:01 PM · View previous versions

Aug 27, 2014 at 03:30 PM

Sports Shooter
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Legality question

Depends on why a parent does not want a child's image on social media. I've had 2 situations where parent and school advised me there were issues with abusive Ex Spouse.
T&I was not an issue as I don't post online. Action shots were a different story for the 2 players I didn't post online but did give Parent and player a CD of a few images. figured they had enough to worry about to loose out on good memories.

Oct 04, 2014 at 02:48 PM

VonDutch
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Legality question

Great question! Very relevant answers. This thread has helped me too.

Oct 05, 2014 at 08:27 AM

ScottHM
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Legality question

Thanks this answered a lot of questions for me as I start back into shooting sports again having previously done it in years past for a local paper and wasn't sure how social media has changed the equation.

Oct 10, 2014 at 05:44 PM

Deborah Kolt
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Legality question

The first thing I would do is ask to see the image. If it's not yours, then you're out of the discussion, and forewarned about the touchy parents. If it is yours, then you can determine if it was screen grabbed or if you have a security issue. I would consult with the school about posting photos of the player in the future. There is no expectation of privacy at a public event. This issue came up at a private school I worked for regarding students whose parents had opted out of photography. (For example, the director of a major intelligence agency.) The kids played sports and acted in plays. It was decided that since it was impossible to photograph those events without capturing them, we would photograph, but did not ID them and avoided using their images in anything for outside dissemination. If the kids grabbed photos for social media, that was between them and their parents. The school needs to clarify their policy for public events where opt outs are concerned. It may have to vary depending upon the student's situation, but parents should know that the school can't prevent media coverage of sporting events.

Oct 15, 2014 at 12:36 PM

tsaphoto
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Legality question

speakit101 wrote:
Got a call today from a local High School football coach and he had got a call from the principal stating that a parent was complaining about her son's pic was on social media. Now I have permission to take pics of the team from the school. And I'm not the only one taking pics on the sideline so it may not have been one of my pics that were in question. So in a situation like this who's right and who's wrong. Do I need to have the players sign disclosure statements or what. Please advise that way I'm...Show more →

As long as you didn't take the picture in the team showers, you're in the right legally. The basic rule is if it's in public, you can shoot it and do with the pictures what you see fit.

This has been tested recently but still holds. There have been a rash of cases in the last few months about photographers taking much more nefarious pictures, including upskirt shots on public transit and at DC landmarks. One Texas case even featured a photographer taking telephoto shots of children at a swimming pool that were clearly for prurient purposes - he had thousands of frames that were close crops of their chests and genital areas, albeit still covered by bathing suits. In each case, the courts found the First Amendment right to shoot, essentially, anything presented in public outweighed the possible illegality or harms of the act. The Texas Supreme Court also decided that a judicial inquiry into the motives of the photographer was constitutionally impermissible.

The moral of the story is that pictures you take in public of publicly accessible subjects are legally acceptable. On the flip side, you hold the copyright for images you create, so you may distribute them as you see fit.

The issue gets a little dicier as the celebrity quotient of the subject goes up. Blame Vanna White.

Disclaimer: I'm not licensed to practice law in Maryland.

Oct 24, 2014 at 01:57 AM

DejanS
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Legality question

Here is a question: what the student identifiable / recognizable outside of his assigned number? In other words, would I recognize the player from the football photos if he were in street clothes walking down "public" sidewalk?

Oct 24, 2014 at 06:42 AM

Frank Lauri
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Legality question

Here are a couple documents that will explain details about your rights as a photographer.

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-your-rights-photographers
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

I also shoot for a local publication in NEPA that was started by the managing editor of Scranton Times Newspaper and he also validates that as long as you are shooting a public event in a public place, permission is not needed, waivers are not needed, parents permission is not needed etc.

We recently had an issue where one of our photographers was shooting a U-9 youth soccer game and was confronted by a parent asking who she received permission from...she needed to get a signed release from each parent...permission from the league Board of Directors etc. And to top it off....there were no pictures taken of this parents children.

In my own personal experiences....in over 10 years of shooting sports.....I've only been approached by 2 parents....one asked me very nice not to post any pics of her child....the other one raised holy hell yelling at me on the field that she didn't even want me take pictures of her son (one extreme to the other). And this was youth sports age group...8-9 years old. I've never had any issues with age groups of teens or older.

Question for speakit101....is there media coverage for this football team and if so....do those photographers need permission to take pictures of the same kids you are taking pictures of?

Frank

Oct 24, 2014 at 07:34 AM

gschlact
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Legality question

Hey Frank,
Can you clarify the paragraph below? Are you implying that the photographer had to comply for some reason?

Also, any guidelines as to what constitutes a public event? Various scenarios come to mind that could cloud this issue. Ie: gathering or private event (not anyone can attend) on public property by a private group. Also, is there a difference between attending vs viewing when in view of the public?

Frank Lauri wrote:
Here are a couple documents that will explain details about your rights as a photographer.

We recently had an issue where one of our photographers was shooting a U-9 youth soccer game and was confronted by a parent asking who she received permission from...she needed to get a signed release from each parent...permission from the league Board of Directors etc. And to top it off....there were no pictures taken of this parents children.

Oct 24, 2014 at 08:02 AM

DejanS
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Legality question

I'll add one thing about this: size does matter and gets positive, and sometimes, as in this case, negative attention. Everyone takes photos with their iPhone and posts them on Facebook with other kids. However, when someone brings out a long lens, that grabs everyone's attention. I have been approached by a teacher or two when I was shooting a Special Olympic basketball tournament asking if I was posting on social media, as a couple of students were not to be photographed. My wife, who is an educator, explained to me a few years ago that some students are not to be photographed for various reason, such as abusive ex-spouses / parent, family members in the protective witness program, or kids that were sexually abused by someone...just various reasons.

Oct 24, 2014 at 08:37 AM

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