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Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands Nati...
  
 
jbregar
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Savas K wrote:
A ban is necessary so that park visitors who take issue with Bregar’s copter are spared an oral version of his endless rationalizations.


To be honest, I've never had anyone "take issue with [my] copter," so no "rationalization" is necessary. When I do encounter people while flying, most watch for a few minutes and move along. A good chunk of them come over and ask a few questions about how it works how it was built. Some of them want to see playback on the video. No one has ever approached me and asked me to stop. Maybe that's because I (like a vast majority of RC aircraft pilots) act responsibly and respectfully when I'm out in public.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that my reasoning is some kind of rationalization. That would imply that I had some kind of latent motive(s) behind flying multi-rotors other than the reasons I've already stated (having fun and using it as another creative tool in my video/photo arsenal). So, what would those be?

In terms of drone use in national parks, I'm about 90% sure this current ban in national parks is a pre-cursor to permitting. It's far easier to move from ban -> permitted use than it is to move from free-for-all -> permitted use.



Aug 23, 2014 at 07:03 PM
DanBrown
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

- H. L. Mencken



Aug 23, 2014 at 09:46 PM
halie
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


It's a noise and visual pollution, as well as privacy issue. Airplanes are banned from flying below about two thousand feet at a minimum in most national parks. Dogs are banned (in a lot of places). My big friendly lab wouldnt hurt a soul, yet all dogs are banned. Guns are banned. There are many gun owners who wouldn't cause any problems, yet they are banned. In some places, even cars are banned, and visitors have to take a bus. Besides, many of the remote areas with relatively fewer people are designated Wilderness areas, where nothing motorized is allowed.


Aug 26, 2014 at 04:33 AM
jbregar
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


halie wrote:
Guns are banned.


Not since 2010. The link is from Yellowstone's web site, but the law that lifted the ban applies to all national parks.

Full-scale aircraft are also not "banned" from flying below 2000'. They just need to request permission (which is often given for photo/video purposes) for the overflight.

Dogs are also not banned, but they are restricted to developed areas and roadways only and have to be on a 6' leash.

Both of these sound like reasonable shared-use policies rather than an outright ban... which is exactly what I was advocating.



Aug 26, 2014 at 03:09 PM
halie
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Interesting about the guns, I remember it being a big deal when hiking through the Smokies many years ago. Created some potential complications for people.
Also glad to know about being able to get permits to fly below 2,000 feet. I think I'll try that and see what they say.
True about dogs not being banned (not a good choice of words), but the restrictions are very strong. I was at Rainier and the ranger would not even let people take their dogs out of the parking lot at Sunrise. And a 6 foot leash? Might as well be banned.



Aug 26, 2014 at 03:46 PM
vilimo
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Just a quick comment on why I think the ban / restriction for dogs with 6' leash is necessary (and good for general public). When my kids were a lot younger, they were quite afraid of animals (any animals ... well, may be not fish ). In national parks, where there are lots of visitors and some of them might be afraid of dogs, it does make perfect sense to have the law requiring dogs to be on 6' leash.



Aug 26, 2014 at 05:37 PM
jbregar
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


halie wrote:
Interesting about the guns, I remember it being a big deal when hiking through the Smokies many years ago. Created some potential complications for people.


We're straying a bit off topic here, but Obama signed the bill into law in 2009 and it took effect in Feb of 2010. There are exceptions, but they're VERY rare. You also can't take a gun into federal buildings, so ranger stations and the like are off-limits.

Also glad to know about being able to get permits to fly below 2,000 feet. I think I'll try that and see what they say.

Guessing you have to have a legitimate reason... but still, it's not a blanket ban. Pretty sure you'd get the variance from the FAA since it's their regulations (not the NPS) that restrict overflights. I have no problems at all with being required to get a permit or special permission to fly a UAS in a National Park. I've said that from the beginning.

True about dogs not being banned (not a good choice of words), but the restrictions are very strong. I was at Rainier and the ranger would not even let people take their dogs out of the parking lot at Sunrise. And a 6 foot leash? Might as well be banned.

I wouldn't exactly equate a 6' leash with a ban... that's a pretty big stretch. I'm a dog owner (we have two very well-behaved larger dogs) and I have no problem with that kind of restriction. Dogs (and pretty much any animal) presents a pretty big risk to wildlife (FAR greater than a UAS) and the wildlife presents a pretty nasty risk to the dog and its owner(s) as well. Rabies comes to mind as the most obvious threat. A 6' leash requirement isn't exactly unprecedented... a lot of the city/county parks around here have the same restriction.



Aug 26, 2014 at 06:41 PM
Naranek
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Just what the world needs -- a way to photograph cats and squirrels from a new angle.


Aug 26, 2014 at 07:04 PM
halie
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


jbregar wrote:
We're straying a bit off topic here, but Obama signed the bill into law in 2009 and it took effect in Feb of 2010. There are exceptions, but they're VERY rare. You also can't take a gun into federal buildings, so ranger stations and the like are off-limits.

Guessing you have to have a legitimate reason... but still, it's not a blanket ban. Pretty sure you'd get the variance from the FAA since it's their regulations (not the NPS) that restrict overflights. I have no problems at all with being required to get a permit or special permission to fly a
...Show more


Well the bad guys were going to be taking guns in anyway, so this makes sense.
The restrictions on dogs, while not a total ban, do pretty much eliminate the ability to do most of the things I'd want to do in a national park. I guess there may be some scenic viewpoints on the road I could take my dog to, but not much else.
I'm curious, what do you think should be considered a legitimate reason for flying an aircraft or a drone? In any case, noise/visual pollution is a big deal these days, with civilization continually encroaching.



Aug 26, 2014 at 07:29 PM
glennh56
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Well if they were to allow drones (battery powered ones are fairly quiet), then I would need an air or CO2 powered gun to bring it down, and permission to release my dog from the 6' leash to retrieve the wreckage and the projectile. Nah, the ban is fine.


Aug 27, 2014 at 12:09 AM
 

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Savas K
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Drones are today's scourge of locusts perpetrated by the selfish. It's second-hand smoke for the eyes and ears.


Aug 27, 2014 at 12:57 AM
DanBrown
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Savas K wrote:
Drones are today's scourge of locusts perpetrated by the selfish. It's second-hand smoke for the eyes and ears.


Weird is just a side effect of being awesome.




Aug 27, 2014 at 01:25 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Savas K wrote:
Drones are today's scourge of locusts perpetrated by the selfish. It's second-hand smoke for the eyes and ears.

DanBrown wrote:
Weird is just a side effect of being awesome.


I know whereof you speak.

OTOH, awesome is often not a side effect of being weird. Go figure.



Aug 27, 2014 at 01:41 AM
jbregar
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Wow, nothing like completely going off the rails.

"Scourge of locusts..."

Seriously?



Aug 27, 2014 at 03:35 PM
Paul Mo
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


I agree with both sides of the argument here - that it is new tech and needs to managed carefully, and debated thoughtfully.

We do need no-fly zones to allow for peace and quiet and privacy, while at the same time allowing use of new tech to create new images and allow photogs to experiment, and therefore, our practice to grow.

I think many posters are missing jbregar's points - by miles.



Aug 31, 2014 at 10:56 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Paul Mo wrote:
...I think many posters are missing jbregar's points - by miles.


I think Justin uses a rational approach to make some very important points. OTOH, I think a ban on drones in National Parks in the US and Canada is appropriate.

A difference of opinion doesn't imply a lack of understanding.



Aug 31, 2014 at 12:34 PM
BluesWest
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Drones are today's scourge of locusts perpetrated by the selfish. It's second-hand smoke for the eyes and ears.

Could not have said it better myself. Our entire culture has become selfish -- as exemplified by, of course, the selfie!.

I'm delighted that the authorities have stepped in immediately to ban drones in the national parks. I hope those bans are made permanent and I hope they're extended to every park, reserve, and wildlife sanctuary in the US.

John



Aug 31, 2014 at 04:09 PM
jbregar
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


Paul Mo wrote:
I agree with both sides of the argument here - that it is new tech and needs to managed carefully, and debated thoughtfully.

We do need no-fly zones to allow for peace and quiet and privacy, while at the same time allowing use of new tech to create new images and allow photogs to experiment, and therefore, our practice to grow.

I think many posters are missing jbregar's points - by miles.


It's quite easy to call for a ban on something you have no interest in. Unfortunately, eventually the ban comes for something you do care about.

The sensible approach is a shared use policy that takes into account everyone's right to use the park. The problem with shared use policies are they require the aforementioned thought and debate. It's FAR easier to just say "ban them all" like you're seeing here. That requires NO thought whatsoever. The same goes for the "I should be able to fly where I want when I want and screw everyone else" advocates (if they exist, I've never met one in real life). Both of those are lazy policy decisions that require very little intellectual exercise... which is one of the reasons they're so popular.

If you break this down, we all (drone pilots, photographers, and everyone else) have a right to use our national parks. We should all strive to restrict exercise of that right as little as possible. That doesn't mean a free-for-all, but what it does mean is that you should have a real, compelling reason to restrict something. Then when you DO place restrictions, they should be as little as possible to fulfill that reason. Cars annoy me in national parks, but I recognize that the guy driving the diesel and "rolling coal" has a right to be there. Would I like to see restrictions put on him (maybe emissions and noise restrictions) so I don't have to drive through a cloud of black smoke and listen to the sound of a straining diesel engine? Maybe... Do I advocate for a complete ban on motor vehicles in national parks? No.

Part of living in a free society is putting up with other people exercising their freedoms too.



Sep 02, 2014 at 05:27 AM
Paul Mo
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


jcolwell wrote:
A difference of opinion doesn't imply a lack of understanding.


No, it doesn't.




Sep 02, 2014 at 08:36 AM
Savas K
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Drones Officially Banned in Arches & Canyonlands National Parks


You gotta figure that a lot of people were bothered and pissed off for a quite a while before the ban was taken up to a vote and voted upon. But there is a glimmer of hope in what’s been said on the part of the National Park Service Director, but selfish drone owners have a steep hill to climb. Here’s some text from the article about that:

“In June, National Park Service Director Jonathan Jarvis signed a policy that directed superintendents to prohibit launching, landing or operating unmanned aircraft on lands and waters administered by the NPS.”

"We embrace many activities in national parks because they enhance visitor experiences with the iconic natural, historic and cultural landscapes in our care," Jarvis said in a release. "However, we have serious concerns about the negative impact that flying unmanned aircraft is having in parks, so we are prohibiting their use until we can determine the most appropriate policy that will protect park resources and provide all visitors with a rich experience."

Here’s some more of what’s been written in the article:

“But continued issues with the high-tech toys has led to bans in parks across the country, including the formal prohibition issued Monday for Arches and Canyonlands parks as well as Hovenweep and Natural Bridges national monuments.

Kate Cannon, the superintendent of those parks and monuments, said in a news release that the drones must be banned to protect public safety, minimize visitor-user conflicts and prevent damage to "scenic values, natural soundscapes and wildlife."

The news release noted the rising use of drones in parks nationally and in southeastern Utah. Cannon could not be reached for further comment.

Specific reports of problems with drones come from other parks: Zion, Yosemite and Yellowstone.

In Utah’s Zion National Park last spring, a drone was spotted chasing desert bighorn sheep, causing ewes and lambs to be separated. Hikers in the park also complained about drones ruining their experiences at places like Angels Landing and Canyon Overlook.

Climbers in California’s Yosemite National Park have been harassed by drones while making technical climbs. Earlier this month, a drone crashed and sank in the popular Grand Prismatic Spring in Yellowstone National Park.

Zion spokeswoman Aly Baltrus told the Salt Lake Tribune after the wildlife paparazzi incident in May that enforcement officers were dealing with about four drone cases each week.”

Like I said before, problems are brought on by selfish and knuckle headed drone owners.



Sep 02, 2014 at 04:43 PM
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