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Archive 2014 · Petzval again

  
 
Paul_K
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Petzval again


Some time ago I opened a threat on this lens after having shot my first series with this lens. Of course I was curious how my experiences would develop over time and looked forward to my next 'serious' shoot with it.

As the lens characteristics IMO don't make it an fit for all purposes portrait lens it took some time before I found the right event to take it out of the bag again, but finally I could do so this weekend.
The pictures are at
http://www.pbase.com/paul_k/castle_20140803
and but for two (nrs 324 and 333) were all shot with the Petzval with my DF (matrix metering and Auto ISO, daylight in the shade)

I was fortunate I found several persons willing to pose, even if at some occasions I had to take some pictures to create some goodwill to persuade others to also get in front of the camera. Still it was an enjoyable afternoon and most pictures were worth it.

Having learned from my previous shoot, I now used the lens at f4, but fortunately the focusing was not any harder then before ( I actually only had about 10 OOF shots of the total 346)

Another thing I also did was that I intentionally locked the AF point, and only chose one of the 9 cross AF points in the viewfinder center (so none of the outside ones) . I kept this AF point on the face or eye, or whatever area I wanted to focus on, and shot accordingly, even if that meant that I basically wasted (as I was shooting vertically) the top one third part ( and more) of the files which I cut and threw away in postprocessing.(basically because the Petzval is sharp in the center and IQ quickly degrades towards the sides, so in many pictures I ended up with a lot of 'unused' space above the heads)

That said and done, IMO the Petzval rocks, and not just for close ups. The center of the lens can be tack sharp (all those fuzzy 'hipster' shots are really a huge case of user error) while the razor thin 'in focus' allows to really put the attention on where you would want it ( for my kind of shooting and taste anyway)

Yes, the swirly back ground is there, and the bokeh is not as regularly shaped as eg with the 1.4/85mm. But frankly despite all the technical and optical excellence of the 1.4/85mm (and I had several shoots with mine recently) I, given the right opportunity, personally prefer the Petzval over the IMO sterile IQ of the 1.4/85mm

http://www.pbase.com/paul_k/image/156848884

http://www.pbase.com/paul_k/image/156854561

http://www.pbase.com/paul_k/image/156849797

http://www.pbase.com/paul_k/image/156857543




Aug 04, 2014 at 05:10 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Petzval again


Thanks for sharing your shots and your experience working with the Petzval lens Paul, I really enjoyed reviewing your work .


Aug 04, 2014 at 05:22 PM
rico
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Petzval again


Wow! Thank you, Paul, for the gallery. A fantasy setting, and your processing, is a perfect match for this lens. Good trick to keep the face on-axis and crop to the composition: a good use for the pixel-overprovisioning of modern sensors. With 24MP, I don't even bother to rotate the camera anymore (shades of my 6x6 era). With such narrow DOF @ f/4, focus is still hard to nail manually—you did well. I'm still on the fence about getting this lens, although the Waterhouse stops are a real attraction.


Aug 05, 2014 at 09:55 AM
sebboh
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Petzval again


cool shots! your set shows off the swirl and look a lot more like a real petzval lens than the previous samples i've seen from the lens.

definitely prefer the sepia and other toned shots to the straight color shots. fits the look better and the color looks a bit off.

i think i'd like a wider perspective though for this look. i'll probably stick with my 42/1.2.



Aug 05, 2014 at 02:15 PM
anscochrome
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Petzval again


I have to say my fav is this one- http://www.pbase.com/paul_k/image/156857543

The color reminds me of an Autochrome plate, which suits the clothing style of the model (early 1900's) All that is missing are the colored starch grains



Aug 05, 2014 at 07:17 PM
ZoneV
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Petzval again


Paul_K wrote:
... But frankly despite all the technical and optical excellence of the 1.4/85mm (and I had several shoots with mine recently) I, given the right opportunity, personally prefer the Petzval over the IMO sterile IQ of the 1.4/85mm..


Thank you for your images and opinon!
I think the less perfect lenses are getting more popular - like the Petzval lenses, Helios 40 or Meyer Trioplan 100.
I do have several quite good lenses (Canon FD L, Zeiss Contax, Minolta Rokkor) but love to use less perfect lenses instead in case I want more than a reproduction.



Aug 06, 2014 at 06:10 AM
Sid Ceaser
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Petzval again


It's a cool little lens, isn't it?

Here are a few shots from a few weekends ago:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2909/14524323490_53cdd2ff81_z.jpg


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5565/14710701822_54885f2978_z.jpg


. . . and a bunch more examples over here

I'm hoping to do a side-by-side session with someone that shoots half-plate wet plate with her 8x10" camera and a vintage petzval soon as part of a review for Lomo.

I'm digging this lens. It isn't made to do a lot, but what it is made for (portraits) when done correctly simply looks astounding.

Cheers,
Sid



Aug 07, 2014 at 03:14 PM
Two23
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Petzval again


I read a lot about photography history, and have a nice collection of Petzval lenses, mostly made between 1845 and 1860. A Petzval is a very specific lens design. It is an cemented doublet in front and an air spaced pair in the rear. The Lomo "Petzval" apparently is a five or six element lens, more like a Helios. Lomo does make regular Helios lenses, and the look is similar to a Petzval.

I compose shots differently with my Petzvals. I am careful to place faces in the center. Originally, the blurry part of an image was cropped away so it didn't show.


Kent in SD



Aug 08, 2014 at 01:18 AM
Two23
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Petzval again


Sepia toned would not be original to the era that the Petzvals were used the most. Those came later, mostly


Kent in SD



Aug 08, 2014 at 01:21 AM
bernardl
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Petzval again


Thanks for posting these samples.

I guess that I should give mine a second chance. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard



Aug 08, 2014 at 01:51 AM
Sid Ceaser
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Petzval again


Two23 wrote:
I read a lot about photography history, and have a nice collection of Petzval lenses, mostly made between 1845 and 1860. A Petzval is a very specific lens design. It is an cemented doublet in front and an air spaced pair in the rear. The Lomo "Petzval" apparently is a five or six element lens, more like a Helios. Lomo does make regular Helios lenses, and the look is similar to a Petzval.

I compose shots differently with my Petzvals. I am careful to place faces in the center. Originally, the blurry part of an image was cropped away so it
...Show more


Yeah, seeing that Zenit makes the Helios, I'm wondering if they took the insides of that and put it in a brass housing. I do know that the front element unscrews out of the Lomo Petzval, but I don't know enough about the insides of lenses to care that much.

And it absolutely needs to be used with the subject dead center. It changes the way I shoot as well when using it. I usually use it like I would a view camera - with a tripod, hoodloupe and live view on my camera. Which is nice, because I haven't used my 4x5 cameras in a long time, and it helps me slow down a bit and gives me the good feeling I have when I use large format.

Cheers,
Sid



Aug 08, 2014 at 07:16 AM
Two23
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Petzval again


You can count how many elements a lens has by shining a tight beamed flashlight into it, count the refelctions. As an avid historian, lens design is something I pay attention to. I think that Lomo calls their lens a Petzval mainly for marketing, to capture the romance. It's still capable of nice results, of course.


Kent in SD



Aug 08, 2014 at 12:42 PM
Paul_K
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Petzval again


Two23 wrote:
I read a lot about photography history, and have a nice collection of Petzval lenses, mostly made between 1845 and 1860. A Petzval is a very specific lens design. It is an cemented doublet in front and an air spaced pair in the rear. The Lomo "Petzval" apparently is a five or six element lens, more like a Helios. Lomo does make regular Helios lenses, and the look is similar to a Petzval.


Two23 wrote:
You can count how many elements a lens has by shining a tight beamed flashlight into it, count the refelctions. As an avid historian, lens design is something I pay attention to. I think that Lomo calls their lens a Petzval mainly for marketing, to capture the romance. It's still capable of nice results, of course.
Kent in SD


Hi Kent,

although I don't claim to be a Petzval historian as you do, I have my reservations about your above remarks.

Of course it IMO kind of undermines your credibility that you as a (self declared?) expert only can speak about the Lomo Petzval in terms of 'apparently' and based on your second posting apparently, although your remark kind of confirms it, have not held at all, so have not really had a good, if any look at it, and basically are just spilling a lot of criticism based on a lot of theory and may I say prejudice.

In that regard you kind of resemble a lot of the Nikon DF criticasters who only a few months ago filled the internet with discussion on what an inferior product that was etc. etc., just based on specs and what in their opinion it should have been. Fortunately Nikon has released the D810 since, and that now is the subject of their unfounded scrutiny.

But anyway, rather then go into a discussion with you on the technical details of the Lomo Petzval lens, of which I have no trouble to admit I'm not an expert about, I have sent a mail to the Lomography people (as you know they are a very close knit group and surely willing to reply any questions) on their thoughts over your remarks.

For the moment I have received the below reply from their Communication Department, Tom Bates, and will come back to this when I have received their follow up.


Hi Paul
Firstly, sorry it has taken a couple of days to reply. Thanks tons for your detailed email and offer to help communicate this and correct any misinformation about the lens.

I am now in communication with our product development team to try and get as detailed information as we can give on this.

For now I can already confirm that our Petzval lens is certainly 4 elements in 3 groups just like the original lens was. And I hope to reply to you soon with this more detailed reply about any other incorrect info in the thread or
...Show more



Aug 12, 2014 at 11:32 AM
Two23
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Petzval again


Note that I have only said I have a nice collection of Petzval lenses, vintage 1845 to 1870s and use them regularly. As an avid collector I've been reading up on them for the past four years and am active on a large format photography website where there are some of the world's leading experts on early lenses and lens design. I found the official "technical specifications" for the Lomo "Petzval" and there was absolutely no mention of lens design, something I find suspicious since the 4/3 design is exactly what defines a Petzval:
http://microsites.lomography.com/petzval-lens/technical_information/

2. Note that the official website calls their product the "New Petzval", not a Petzval, and refers to their "reinvention."
http://microsites.lomography.com/petzval-lens/

3. Review sites have been unable to obtain the true construction of lens, something I find odd if it really is the original design.
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/lomography-x-zenit-85mm-f-2-2-petzval-art-lens-review-24105

All of the above could be due to a foriegn company not used to more standard marketing, I don't know. It will be interesting to see. I've been unable to find any link to anyone who has taken one apart, or has definitivly nailed down the lens diagram. As a purist this bothers me a little. I do have an email sent to someone who would know, for sure. Hopefully they'll get back to me. Original formula Petzvals were designed to actually reduce "swirly bokeh" since it was undesirable at the time. (Look at Civil War portraits.) What they did then was make the lens so the image circle was very large, and then just use the center of the image. As for why I don't have one of the Lomo versions, the main reason is I already have a Darlot from the 1870s, and it's a better focal length for my camera. I get a kick out of using a lens made in the 19th century on my 21st century camera! I also have a darlot achromatic doublet lens made in 1893 mounted in F-mount. It's more "swirly" than my Petzval. I've also been looking to adapta a Helios as well. All three of these lenses will produce a similar effect. There is also now an offering from Lensbaby that will replicate the look of an Imagon on my Nikon. i have a 250mm Imagon for my 4x5 but don't use it much. I like the 19th century lenses better, or the early Heliar.

As for the Nikon DF, I passed even though I like classic designed cameras. The specs I looked at were the weight and size--pretty objective. It's way too big for what I want and too heavy. I would be interested if they made one in M43 or even DX. Otherwise, why wouldn't I just buy a Sony a7 or used Leica M9?


Kent in SD




Aug 13, 2014 at 02:04 AM
ZoneV
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Petzval again


Yeah, I wonderd why the put a lens diagramm on their website.
Probably to prevent other tinkeres from the idea to make such a simple lens on their own?

I have a 4lens/2groups modifed Petzval projection lens I use on my EOS 5D, I think its images still looks enough like Petzval :-)

So I would not mind if their new Petzval design would be with two glued achromats, or probably even with additional lenses to get more of the effect of large format Petzval lenses.



Aug 13, 2014 at 01:56 PM
Paul_K
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Petzval again


Had an update from Tom Bates of the Communications Department today

He promises to send the asked for information (including diagram of the lens) somewhere next week

Will keep you updated



Aug 14, 2014 at 04:18 AM
Paul_K
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Petzval again


Just to give an update on the latest info I received from the people at Lomography on this subject

Today I received the link below to a technical data sheet about the lens which may be of some use
http://microsites.lomography.com/petzval-lens/images/technical_download.pdf
It'snot really new, but I mentioning it nevertheless

In addition I also received a diagram of the lens construction which I with their permission can share and which clearly shows the number of lens elements used in this lens

Unfortunately I can't paste it in this message, so I've posted it in a file on my website
http://www.pbase.com/paul_k/lomography_petzval_2285mm



Aug 18, 2014 at 08:52 AM
Sid Ceaser
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Petzval again


Are we looking at four glass elements in that diagram?




Aug 23, 2014 at 09:28 AM
Steve464
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Petzval again


Found this article on the history of the Petzval lens

http://antiquecameras.net/petzvallens.html



Aug 23, 2014 at 11:04 AM
uhoh7
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Petzval again


http://cameraquest.com/jpg7/petzval_br_sony_a7.jpg


OMG




Aug 30, 2014 at 03:22 PM





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