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Archive 2014 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?

  
 
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


Hi all,

I am to do an outdoor family shoot of 10 people (7 adults, 3 kids ranging 1-5 yrs). I will use my 50L, but I'm struggling with the aperture setting. I like the OOF background at f/1.2 but I need all people to be in focus so that would point to f/2.8. Additionally, I'm using a 5DmkII which doesn't have 100% consistent focus accuracy. At f/1.2 there is no way to check focus through the viewfinder.

I could put up a tripod and use LV to check focus, but that would take too much time.

Any thoughts on which aperture to use?

Thanks, Ralph



Jul 07, 2014 at 07:21 PM
Fast6
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


Depending upon how many rows there are, you might be looking at f/8.


Jul 07, 2014 at 07:29 PM
jah2266
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


2.2
Just make sure everyone is in a straight enough line.



Jul 07, 2014 at 07:35 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


You almost certainly want your subjects in focus, so use an aperture that accomplishes that. If your camera has live view, zoom in to 10x magnification and look at the image in live view. Press the DOF preview button on your camera and pan around the screen to see how the sharpness is affected at the closest and most distant subjects that you want in focus.

There are other ways to make the primary subjects stand out from your background. If you can put the camera closer to your subjects and put more distance between the subjects and the background, you may still get decent OOF background even with a smaller aperture. Also think about the texture of the background — something that is fairly plain and low contrast will tend to disappear more into the background. Having the background be slightly darker than the main subjects can also make them stand out more. (You could do the opposite and let the background be very bright, potentially even blowing out a bit, but this is trickier.)

Dan



Jul 07, 2014 at 07:36 PM
shutterbug guy
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


I've shot 2 rows of people with that lens at a distance of about 10 feet using an aperture of f5.6 and the back row wasn't tack sharp, usable but not totally in focus. Hope this helps.


Jul 07, 2014 at 07:41 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


Hi Ralph,

I'd probably go with about f/8 on the 50/1.2L, or maybe use your 16-35/2.8L II at 35mm and f/5.6 or so. AF accuracy shouldn't be a big issue if you use centre point One Shot AF on the centre person, and have decent DOF. I've heard a lot about "focus shift" with the 50/1.2L, but I haven't experienced any issues with mine. That's probably because I most often use it at f/1.2, and sometimes at f/8, or so.

OTOH, using a tripod and manual focus LiveView (with DOF preview) can help to increase the probability of success. You could tell them to take their positions and hang out for a minute, while you get setup. Shouldn't take long.

P.S. it looks like your profile could use an update.



Jul 07, 2014 at 07:46 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


You need good light. I read a lot about fast primes here but when you have a group, aim for f/8 or f/10



Jul 07, 2014 at 07:53 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


If you're shooting that many people I'm not sure you'll have much room for the background. In any case you can aperture bracket it just to be safe.


Jul 07, 2014 at 07:53 PM
surf monkey
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


10 people sounds like a 2-row scenario to me.
f2.8 won't give you enough DOF.
Minimum needed would be f5.6, but probably as others have said f8 would be safer.

Here's a DOF calculator you can try: http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

Edited on Jul 07, 2014 at 07:56 PM · View previous versions



Jul 07, 2014 at 07:53 PM
surf monkey
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


snapsy wrote:
If you're shooting that many people I'm not sure you'll have much room for the background. In any case you can aperture bracket it just to be safe.


+1 if you want OOF background, focus stacking is the way to go.
Takes some practice and post-processing skills.



Jul 07, 2014 at 07:55 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


Wow thanks guys for all your input. Here in the Netherlands it's 8AM and I am very pleased to see you all added your opinions. I see 2.2 through 8 so I may need to narrow things down a bit.

Light and Location
My shoot is at 9.30, summer time, outside location in a national park setting. I expect ample light, although @f1.2~2.8 I could shoot @ ISO100 even in cloudy conditions. I intend to backlight wherever I can and use Manual metering mode and spot metering to measure the exposure compensation (mostly it's +1 in my experience), then switch to Aperture priority and dial in that compensation amount, which should not need to change as long as I'm shooting the same scene. This way I can quickly change my aperture.

Backgrounds
I expect to have distant backgrounds (20m or more) for the most part. There may be the occasional tree or bush close by, but I'll try to include the distant part wherever I can.

Group rows
As there are children 1-5 yrs old, I'll have at least 2 rows of people. I will ask them to be in a straight line as much as possible, and I will try to put them on a bridge or crossing to help them organise themselves. I don't think I'll need 3 rows.

Subject distance
I reckon my subject distance is more than 10 ft. because - well - it's a group. This works with me when it comes to DoF on the 50L. I took some test shots - at approx. 12-15 ft / 4-5m distance of 3 children who couldn't sit still at all. f/1.2 did not work reliably, but f/2.8 worked quite OK.

Auto Focus
Even in good light, my 5DmkII sometimes misses the right spot. I'm using centre focus point only and my camera is set to rear button focus so I can set it once (or as often as I like) and subsequently use the exposure button only for snapping. I noticed that some shots @f/2.8 were all 3 children were slightly OOF. Maybe 10%. I guess I should prepare for saving for a 5D3 if I'm going to do these shots more often.

Aperture bracketing
Snapsy your suggestion is to Aperture bracket, I suppose all I can do is take several shots while adjusting the aperture manually between each shot, as I am not aware of any functionality where the 5DmkII can bracket Aperture automatically. I could use standard bracket functionality and rely on exposure correction in post. 1.2 - 2 - 2.8. Or set the increments to 1 stop and do it manually.

Focus stacking
surf monkey you mention focus stacking. I suppose you mean to use a tripod, ask the group to maintain their positions, take a f/1.2 shot for the background, then switch to f/4, f/5.6 or f/8 to shoot the group and then combine those two images in post? I could do that, my PS skills are good enough for that.

Based on all of this, given the larger subject distance I'm leaning towards f/2.8 if I'd have to choose only one aperture, use a tripod and use jcolwell's tip: LV to check focus on the bunch. As long as the group stays where they are focus should be fine then.

Smaller groups
Included in my package offer is a number of images of smaller groups, like only the kids and their parents, only the grandparents with the moms and dads, etc. Here we have a different situation because I'll be shooting from a shorter subject distance. I'm used to shooting 1 row @f/1.2, but now there are children standing and being held so I must expect 2 rows at least and shoot f/4 to be sure? No focus shift @f/4 and smaller.

Hope this is not too much info for you guys and thanks again for your help!

Stay good,
Ralph



Jul 08, 2014 at 02:05 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


jcolwell wrote:
P.S. it looks like your profile could use an update.

Profile updated



Jul 08, 2014 at 02:24 AM
jasonpatrick
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


I'd back up and shoot with your 70-200 if possible. Flatten out the image and still get a decent background. This was shot with a 135 f/2 @f/2.








Jul 08, 2014 at 10:01 AM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


Ralph -- I'd use 35mm and between f/5.6-8.0 for that group. I want the people sharp and care less about OOF background. IME, subjects care more about their expression and clothes/hair than the background.

I love the 35 IS is for that sort of thing. With 2 to 4 people in informal arrangement, I can get by with f/4.0, but invariably, someone is less sharp. More people equals greater DOF for me.

Jason -- Nice shot!



Jul 08, 2014 at 11:40 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


You can blur the background in PS easier than fussing with multiple shots with lens opened up. If you can't shoot at f/8, you need more light.

david



Jul 08, 2014 at 11:45 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


Yes but the 50L just has this special look. And that is what I bought it for. I appreciate that clients care more about other things, but those being equal, even a client may see that special look and appreciate it.

I'm puzzled at so many different opinions, 35mm, 70-200, using PS. I'll just have a time-out and think about this.

Stay good,
Ralph



Jul 08, 2014 at 06:03 PM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


I'm with you Ralph, I love my 50L. But I wouldn't shoot a group with it except stopped down to at least f/4.0, losing that special look from its spherical aberration.

I might try the 35 IS or 35L stopped down to only f/3.2 or so, but that's a lot of people to keep in focal plane. I could probably have shot all these images with the 35mm focal length at f/4.5-5.6 and be perfectly happy (and safe). That 28-300 was an incredibly versatile tool, and I used all focal lengths without making a lens change.

Here are a couple shots with 28-300L with a number of people to keep in focus. Check the focal length used with on-camera flash. This shows my conservative side for focal length and aperture for group shots outdoors -- the type of approach that would guarantee all the people were in focus for each setting. I don't like risks for once in a lifetime events. Perhaps you will have other priorities, and that's great. Just a bit of info.

Hope it helps.

















Jul 08, 2014 at 06:28 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


Hi Jim, thank you for your images and your advice. These images sure look great. Makes me wonder about taking my on camera flash with me.

Today I checked the location where my client wants to shoot. It's more a forest setting than an open field. I was there 4.5 hours after midday (17.30 and on DST) and there was no sunlight coming in whatsoever, because the trees standing around were just too high and too dense. That is why I will most likely need to shoot the group shot without backlighting and thus probably need the flashes.

There is a plain, open field just a couple of 100 metres away where I may go and try some individual and small group shots. Conditions for Sunday appear to be overcast with some sunny intervals. I'm just determined to use my 50L for some shot of 2 or 3 people, using backlighting and exposure compensation. Staying low in a flower field (and have my clients sit) is also one of my objectives.

Thanks so far.

Stay good,
Ralph



Jul 10, 2014 at 04:00 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


rabbitmountain wrote:
Yes but the 50L just has this special look. And that is what I bought it for. I appreciate that clients care more about other things, but those being equal, even a client may see that special look and appreciate it.

I'm puzzled at so many different opinions, 35mm, 70-200, using PS. I'll just have a time-out and think about this.

Stay good,
Ralph


I'm puzzled that you would use a non-ideal focal length for your subject, especially one that conflicts with certain technical requirements that you have described, because you like the "special look" of the lens. I'd bet quite a lot that that notion will have no impact on your clients whatsoever, and that if you used a different and possibly more appropriate lens for the shot you describe that you would be able to better control more of the other critical elements that will definitely affect the "look" of the resulting photograph.

I'm also a bit puzzled that someone with clients willing to pay to go shoot in a remote location would be asking a general photography forum for advice on what aperture to shoot at, but maybe I'm the only one who wonders about that sort of thing...

One good way to figure this out ahead of time (and for that, I compliment you, given the size of the group and the probability that you'll only get one chance) is to simply mock up the shot with some willing assistants or stand ins such as lamps and garden tools and find out for certain what aperture will work for you and how far from the background your subjects might need to be in order to get the effect you want. Heck, you might even try it with some different focal lengths to see how they affect the result.

Dan



Jul 10, 2014 at 04:06 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 50L family shoot - Aperture?


gdanmitchell wrote:
I'm puzzled that you would use a non-ideal focal length for your subject,

Why would you say that 50mm is inappropriate for a group shot? Not bashing, I'm interested.

especially one that conflicts with certain technical requirements that you have described
Which do you mean in particular?

I'm also a bit puzzled that someone with clients willing to pay to go shoot in a remote location would be asking a general photography forum for advice on what aperture to shoot at,
Quite simple really: I haven't had this lens for long so the lens and I are an inexperienced combo. But I need to start sometime. I will take some shots with other lenses/apertures too, to be safe. My 35L and I are very experienced together.

I'd bet quite a lot that that notion will have no impact on your clients whatsoever
This is very interesting. I usually stand in awe when looking at the work of other successful portrait photogs that shoot the 50L wide open most or all the time, like Amy & Jordan or Jasmine Star. I can only assume that an average client would feel the same. OTOH some clients may complain that the picture isn't sharp corner to corner.
But it's the look that I like and that's why I like to shoot the portraits that way. Then I will see whether or not more clients like that look and book shoots with me.

, and that if you used a different and possibly more appropriate lens for the shot you describe that you would be able to better control more of the other critical elements that will definitely affect the "look" of the resulting photograph.
So out of all of my lenses, which one would you suggest?



Jul 10, 2014 at 05:09 PM
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