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Archive 2014 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day

  
 
Daniel19101910
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


Hi, got a really short question, I Like bird photography (not only BIF) , and I'm asking how important is the aperture from the lens, I live in a rainy city on winter, and in summer sunny days are not that common, and I have a 60D, so when needed more than 800 ISO photos appear really noisy ... so I'm asking, is there a huge difference between a f4 and a f5.6 or 6.7 for cloudy days?
Thank you very much.



Jun 25, 2014 at 09:55 PM
howard
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


If you have a good lens, like the big white telephoto lenses that Canon makes, don't hesitate to use them at wide open. Whether it's cloudy or not is irrelevant to the optical performance of the lens. With my 300 f/2.8 lens, I never hesitate to use it wide open, even with a 1.4x TC attached.

You will see a larger difference in image quality with lower grade lenses at f/5.6 vs. f/7.1. But even then, if the light is the limiting factor, I would use it wide open. The higher noise from higher ISO, and the risk of motion blur will outweigh the slight increase in (potential) IQ.

Assuming you actually mean a telephoto lens that reaches f/4 literally, I would use it at that aperture.



Jun 25, 2014 at 10:09 PM
Daniel19101910
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


Thank you for your answer, but that kind of lens are waaaaay out of my league, but, what I meant was, do I need to buy only f4 or less, or can I buy for example a f6.3 for birding?


Jun 25, 2014 at 10:15 PM
howard
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


Daniel19101910 wrote:
Thank you for your answer, but that kind of lens are waaaaay out of my league, but, what I meant was, do I need to buy only f4 or less, or can I buy for example a f6.3 for birding?


Oh, I misunderstood your question. I would still go for a lens with the largest aperture possible, if the light is the biggest limiting factor. The Canon 300 f/4 is a very good lens and not very expensive (relatively speaking). I would consider it.



Jun 25, 2014 at 10:21 PM
Daniel19101910
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


Thank you very much, I didn't explain myself properly the first time I think, I speak spanish and not that good in english


Jun 25, 2014 at 10:31 PM
Liquidstone
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


Daniel19101910 wrote:
Thank you for your answer, but that kind of lens are waaaaay out of my league, but, what I meant was, do I need to buy only f4 or less, or can I buy for example a f6.3 for birding?


A slow f/6.3 lens, even if stopped down to f/8 - f/9 to improve IQ or DOF, should be fine as long as the bird is static. I've shot apertures as small as f/18 at stationary birds in low light, and below is a sample.

Indigo-banded Kingfisher (Alcedo cyanopecta)
5D2 + Sigmonster (Sigma 300-800 DG) + Canon 2x TC, 1374 mm, f/18, 1/6 sec, ISO 640, 475B/3421 support, uncropped full frame resized to 1200x800

http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/image/110433456/original.jpg





Jun 25, 2014 at 10:42 PM
Daniel19101910
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


wow, that's a awesome pic, here we only got dull birds, not many colors, thank you for your wonderful example


Jun 25, 2014 at 10:47 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


I think LS scared the bird into standing still for that shot .


Jun 25, 2014 at 11:48 PM
Alpha_Geist
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


Daniel19101910 wrote:
wow, that's a awesome pic, here we only got dull birds, not many colors, thank you for your wonderful example


Haha, the "dull birds" made me snort while laughing.



Jun 25, 2014 at 11:51 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


An f/6.3 lens would be ok, but you would need a camera that handles higher iso better. If you shoot iso 800 at f/4, then you would need iso 1600 at f/5.6 and that would be a lot of noise for your camera.

Sounds like you are trying to push something out of your gear that is going to be fairly tough - a lens with small aperture, a camera that is not noise tolerant, and worst of all very cloudy weather. You will need to be very deliberate about your shooting conditions if you cannot upgrade your camera gear. If it is cloudy, shoot midday and make sure the sun is behind you. If it is sunny, cancel everything and get out outside. Certainly improving on your camera or lens would help, but I think the cost will be too much. I often accept ISO 800 for my wildlife shots in order to keep my shutter speed high or improve my depth of field, and I do not apply any noise reduction to the image.

A used Canon 400 f/5.6 is the best telephoto lens deal for the money. You could try upgrading to even something like a 5D classic which tolerates higher ISOs. It has its limitations for action photography, but you can still do some fine bird photography with its sensor.

David



Jun 26, 2014 at 09:16 AM
howard
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


Liquidstone wrote:
A slow f/6.3 lens, even if stopped down to f/8 - f/9 to improve IQ or DOF, should be fine as long as the bird is static. I've shot apertures as small as f/18 at stationary birds in low light, and below is a sample.

Indigo-banded Kingfisher (Alcedo cyanopecta)
5D2 + Sigmonster (Sigma 300-800 DG) + Canon 2x TC, 1374 mm, f/18, 1/6 sec, ISO 640, 475B/3421 support, uncropped full frame resized to 1200x800

http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/image/110433456/original.jpg




Hi, this is a fantastic photo. I would not have dared to try 1/6 on a bird!

However, a purely technical question: what is the reason that you shot at f/18? The obvious answer is probably DOF, but I am wondering if you really need that much DOF? Would f/8 or f/11 not do for this photo?

Edit: I understand that with this focal length the DOF is very shallow (even in this photo at f/18), what I meant was: do you really need the increase in DOF from f/8 or f/11 to f/18? It probably isn't that much of an increase given the already shallow DOF.



Jun 26, 2014 at 09:41 AM
howard
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


I also want to say that, Romy's photo is fantastic, I am in no way to dispute that; but I would say that this is an exception rather than the rule -- what I mean is that for us mere mortals we cannot reasonably expect to shoot at 1/6 sec. most of the time. I think a large aperture is still a plus when the light is the major limiting factor.


Jun 26, 2014 at 09:46 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


1/6 requires an amazing image stabilization system, a sturdy tripod, and twenty other photos that are blurry from motion artifact (camera shake or subject motion).


Jun 26, 2014 at 10:31 AM
Daniel19101910
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


Thank you all for the replies, I will keep on a lense instead of the 5D classic (good idea as it is), because I already have a "good camera", may be not the best, but can do something, however, lenses i got... I dont know if I should sell them or throw them to trash, they were the cheapest of the market and now I know why haha.

I've tried to get a 100-400, but disappear really fast so, I was thinking on the 100-300 sigma or a 70-200 2.8 non IS or f4 IS

I know use the 75-300 non IS non USM (120 dollars new with a canon bag and a canon tripod... ][_, ([]) ][_,), so even the 70-200 with 1.4x that may not have the best IQ from the market, they will be a good lens for me.



Jun 26, 2014 at 10:39 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


A used Canon 400 f/5.6 is the best bird telephoto lens deal for the money. It's fast focusing, light, long enough if you can get close, and for 400mm it's cheap. Alas, no IS.
The 100-400 give you IS which may help in your dark environment.
70-200 is just too short unless you know you can get close or have a blind where they get close to you.

David



Jun 26, 2014 at 02:11 PM
Liquidstone
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


howard wrote:
Hi, this is a fantastic photo. I would not have dared to try 1/6 on a bird!


Thanks!

However, a purely technical question: what is the reason that you shot at f/18? The obvious answer is probably DOF, but I am wondering if you really need that much DOF? Would f/8 or f/11 not do for this photo?

Edit: I understand that with this focal length the DOF is very shallow (even in this photo at f/18), what I meant was: do you really need the increase in DOF from f/8 or f/11 to f/18? It probably isn't that much of an increase given the already shallow DOF.


First, the Sigmonster + 2x TC is f/11 wide open at any focal length so f/8 is not possible. I stopped down to f/18 because (1) that's the optical sweet spot of the combo in terms of sharpness; and (2) for more DOF (still, parts of the bird's feet are outside the sharp zone).



Jun 26, 2014 at 08:49 PM
Liquidstone
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


dgdg wrote:
1/6 requires an amazing image stabilization system, a sturdy tripod, and twenty other photos that are blurry from motion artifact (camera shake or subject motion).


Well, as long as the subject doesn't move, slow shutter shots are very possible with proper long lens technique. Interestingly, I find IS doesn't help much (actually it induces some shake) at such slow Tv.



0.80s f/10.0 at 800.0mm iso200
http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/image/52818905/original.jpg

1/3s f/13.0 at 1120.0mm iso320
http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/image/97921812/original.jpg



Jun 26, 2014 at 08:59 PM
Daniel19101910
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


Really great pictures, only that can I say.


Jun 26, 2014 at 09:08 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


howard wrote:
Edit: I understand that with this focal length the DOF is very shallow (even in this photo at f/18), what I meant was: do you really need the increase in DOF from f/8 or f/11 to f/18? It probably isn't that much of an increase given the already shallow DOF.


DOF is proportional to the f/number, so f/16 gives double the DOF of f/8 with all else being equal. Therefore yes it can be necessary if you want more than just the beak or just the eye in focus and there's precious little DOF to play with.

- Alan



Jun 27, 2014 at 10:21 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Aperture for birds in cloudy day


pretty cool
i've gone down to 1/50. always used cable release and is. it worked, so i never compared without is.
good shots!

david



Jun 27, 2014 at 10:31 AM
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