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D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement
  
 
mshi
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


I bought a used D600 here and did very thorough testings that confirmed no hot and dead pixel on the sensor. However, when the camera came back from the shutter replacement, I started to notice three dead pixels now on the sensor. I haven't done either wet or dry clean before sending it in, nor have done so after I got it back. So the only possibility is three dead pixels were caused by the shutter replacement. I was wondering any of other D600 owners have had the same experience at all. By the way, Adobe Camera RAW and LR won't show you any dead pixels because they remap hot/dead pixels in raw conversion. Need to use either Nikon ViewNX/Capture NX2 or Capture One Pro to discover that. Those who want to buy used D600 with new shutter should pay close attention to this issue.


Jun 17, 2014 at 02:32 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


You can get rid of the hot pixels (firmware remap) by performing two sensor clean operations in quick succession (Setup -> Clean Image Sensor -> Clean Now)


Jun 17, 2014 at 02:41 AM
mshi
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


snapsy wrote:
You can get rid of the hot pixels (firmware remap) by performing two sensor clean operations in quick succession (Setup -> Clean Image Sensor -> Clean Now)


Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a shot. I normally shoot jpeg with my D600 so hot/dead pixels can be a major issue.



Jun 17, 2014 at 02:49 AM
hans98ko
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


I had been working in the sensor industry for over 20 years now and have never seen a single sensor coming out of any production line without a single defective pixel. Not even for units shipped to NASA or any space agencies.
Can you believe in zero defect in 1MP to 200MP? That is way above the 6 Sigma limit required by MIL standard. Even for MIL standard they are not even close to 5 Sigma for their sensors. Astronauts have reported defective pixels due to cameras exposure to cosmic rays.
One only sees a defective pixel because it had not been masked out yet PERIOD.

mshi wrote:
I bought a used D600 here and did very thorough testings that confirmed no hot and dead pixel on the sensor. However, when the camera came back from the shutter replacement, I started to notice three dead pixels now on the sensor. I haven't done either wet or dry clean before sending it in, nor have done so after I got it back. So the only possibility is three dead pixels were caused by the shutter replacement. I was wondering any of other D600 owners have had the same experience at all. By the way, Adobe Camera RAW and LR
...Show more



Jun 17, 2014 at 06:36 AM
Nikon_14
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


Very interesting. It's good to hear from someone "behind the scenes" who actually works on this stuff so that we know what are real problems as opposed to "No big deal" problems.


hans98ko wrote:
I had been working in the sensor industry for over 20 years now and have never seen a single sensor coming out of any production line without a single defective pixel. Not even for units shipped to NASA or any space agencies.
Can you believe in zero defect in 1MP to 200MP? That is way above the 6 Sigma limit required by MIL standard. Even for MIL standard they are not even close to 5 Sigma for their sensors. Astronauts have reported defective pixels due to cameras exposure to cosmic rays.
One only sees a defective pixel because it had not been
...Show more



Jun 17, 2014 at 12:31 PM
mshi
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


hans98ko wrote:
I had been working in the sensor industry for over 20 years now and have never seen a single sensor coming out of any production line without a single defective pixel. Not even for units shipped to NASA or any space agencies.
Can you believe in zero defect in 1MP to 200MP? That is way above the 6 Sigma limit required by MIL standard. Even for MIL standard they are not even close to 5 Sigma for their sensors. Astronauts have reported defective pixels due to cameras exposure to cosmic rays.
One only sees a defective pixel because it had not been
...Show more

Since our childhood we have been told to trust experts because they know everything and we need no to do any thinking on our own. 24/7/365, experts parade themselves nonstop on TV, on media, on advertising, on the Internet, and they keep telling us what to believe, what to desire, what to buy, what to trash, what else to buy just as George Orwell once pointed out, "Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."

Experts may love their cameras equipped with sensors that have hot/dead pixels as the industry norm, and they may have highly rational explanations for why those hot/dead pixels are good for them. I am a moron because I do my own thinking. And my thinking tells me that's bullshit. If I pay for a camera that has a sensor with hot/dead pixels, then it is indeed a defective product, unless the camera maker states I should expect some dead/hot pixels on its sensor. I'll return the camera and ask my money back, so an expert can have it sooner.



Jun 17, 2014 at 08:39 PM
CanadaMark
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


Your expectations are way too high if you want over 24,000,000 pixels to all be utterly flawless under all conditions all the time. Every camera I have ever seen has at least one hot or dead pixel, under certain conditions. Hans98ko knows what he's talking about.

Just run your sensor clean in rapid succession 2-3 times, and the camera will map them out. No need for a return. If you return your cameras every time you see a hot/dead pixel, you will be at it indefinitely. ACR even maps them out automatically if you're too lazy to do the sensor clean method. Nikon can map them out for you too, if you really want.

Manufactures have policies on acceptable dead/stuck/hot pixels. For example, if you read the fine print on your TV warranty, it will say somewhere between 4 and 7 dead pixels are acceptable, sometimes even more if they aren't clumped together are "within spec".

You're welcome to your own ways of thinking, but unfortunately it won't change the fact that a DSLR with 3 / 24,160,256 dead pixels is not defective, and has a number of quick solutions. Most likely, you've always had those pixels and the shutter swap had nothing to do with it, but just happened to notice them recently.

Edited on Jun 17, 2014 at 09:07 PM · View previous versions



Jun 17, 2014 at 09:04 PM
Nikon_14
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


I'll confess to being ignorant on this issue- how many dead pixels would it take to affect the image quality of, say a large (24 x 36) print?

If the answer turns out to be that it's negligible til 20-30 dead pixels...

Would love to hear from some people who can speak from experience.



Jun 17, 2014 at 09:05 PM
 

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CanadaMark
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


Nikon_14 wrote:
I'll confess to being ignorant on this issue- how many dead pixels would it take to affect the image quality of, say a large (24 x 36) print?

If the answer turns out to be that it's negligible til 20-30 dead pixels...

Would love to hear from some people who can speak from experience.


It depends where they are. If you have 50 dead pixels all beside each other, they will be far more noticeable than if they were evenly distributed throughout the image. It also depends on what content is supposed to be there, for example, you wouldn't see them on a black background. Dead pixels are also harder to spot in a print than a stuck pixel, which remains bright red or green (usually), and can stand out depending on the background if there are enough of them clumped together.

As for the exact number, I don't have an answer to that question but it would definitely depend on the print content as well as the proximity of the pixels to one another. I know for a fact I have prints with hot pixels in them and I've yet to find them, YMMV.



Jun 17, 2014 at 09:11 PM
hans98ko
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


I can understand why the OP wants a perfect sensor after paying a couple of thousand dollars for it.
But the true fact is, it is not attainable with what we have and where we are producing them. For example the best clean rooms we have on earth is Class 10 or 10 particles per cubic meter. With just a single particle falling on the sensor during production, you got more than a single defective pixel due to the size of the particle much larger than the size of the pixel. Another example is plasma deposit in a vacuum. There is no perfect vacuum on earth without the gravitational effect, so there is always a chance of not having a perfect finish due to imperfect etching and doping processes.
Now, let me tell you a good but real joke. I once told a bunch of QC inspectors to sort out 20 flawless sensors for our test jigs, but after a whole week of sorting over tens of thousand units, they came out with none. And you are talking about a person who has the ability to make decisions for a company that is worth billions.
If I am not going to get it, you will definitely not going to get it with just a couple of thousand dollars.
CanadaMark did gave a very clear explanation on the QC requirements, and I am assuming he either work in this field or follows this field very closely.
To answer Nikon_14 on the allowable limits on defective pixels, there is none AFAIK. Only keep off areas and adjacent pixels with respect to the pixel size. For a 24MP sensor, don't be surprise you have a few hundreds of them. It just that it being masked out on the production lines.
Now to keep the OP's thinking hat on...Do you know why we have the specs for total pixels 24.7MP and effective pixels 24.3MP instead of the exact pixels on the sensors? Does that meant that you have 400K of defective or unused pixels?
Have fun my friends!



Jun 18, 2014 at 06:01 AM
Nikon_14
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


So does this mean that life is more meaningful while capturing images of people, places, etc. than inspecting gear?


Jun 18, 2014 at 11:33 AM
Ben Horne
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


mshi wrote:
Since our childhood we have been told to trust experts because they know everything and we need no to do any thinking on our own. 24/7/365, experts parade themselves nonstop on TV, on media, on advertising, on the Internet, and they keep telling us what to believe, what to desire, what to buy, what to trash, what else to buy just as George Orwell once pointed out, "Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."

Experts may love their cameras equipped with sensors that have hot/dead pixels as the industry norm, and they may have highly rational explanations
...Show more


Do yourself a favor and start shooting RAW instead of Jpeg. Many of the major RAW conversion software packages will map out dead pixels for you and you'll never know they are there.



Jun 18, 2014 at 02:12 PM
MalbikEndar
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


> And my thinking tells me that's bullshit. If I pay for a camera that has a sensor >with hot/dead pixels, then it is indeed a defective product, unless the camera maker >states I should expect some dead/hot pixels on its sensor. I'll return the camera and >ask my money back, so an expert can have it sooner.

Since you will never be happy with currently (and future!) available technology, I encourage you to abandon digital photography.

>I am a moron because I do my own thinking.

Not because you do your own thinking...but because your thinking is wrong.




Jun 18, 2014 at 05:29 PM
mshi
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


Let me see how many more Internet experts are gonna show up here to tell me what to believe, what to do, and what to expect, and let me quote Michael Crichton, "We expected to banish paper, but we actually banished thought."


Jun 18, 2014 at 06:42 PM
runamuck
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


Could we build a flawless sensor? Sure. Could anyone afford that flawless sensor? Sure, given that anyone seeing the results from that perfect sensor were willing to pay enough to cover the costs of that sensor.

Pretty much everything has tolerances built in. I machined axles that held the wheels and bearings for 400 ton overhead cranes, and everything had a tolerance ranging from a few thousandths of an inch to a couple of ten thousandths of an inch. The hair on your head averages about three thousandths of an inch for comparison. Given variations in hardness of the highly alloyed steel, without tolerances I'd have scrapped far more axles than I successfully made, making the cost of a good axle astronomically high.




Jun 18, 2014 at 08:14 PM
RoyC
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · D600 Suffers Dead Pixels After Shutter Replacement


mshi wrote:
Let me see how many more Internet experts are gonna show up here to tell me what to believe, what to do, and what to expect, and let me quote Michael Crichton, "We expected to banish paper, but we actually banished thought."


You are free to believe whatever you want.

But tell us what business you are in where the product is always perfect and there is no tolerance allowed.



Jun 18, 2014 at 08:22 PM





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